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Loyalty and religion

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Giftorcurse
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30 Dec 2009, 11:34 am

If there's one thing that bothers me about organized religion, it is the fact that some stress that one must have absolute loyalty to God and his word. Personally, I find that to be a crock; human beings have the right to form their identity. We don't allow some debatedly fictional entity to do the job.


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Sand
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30 Dec 2009, 11:39 am

Giftorcurse wrote:
If there's one thing that bothers me about organized religion, it is the fact that some stress that one must have absolute loyalty to God and his word. Personally, I find that to be a crock; human beings have the right to form their identity. We don't allow some debatedly fictional entity to do the job.


To my mind there are many things about belief in a god and the organized religion that reinforces that that is wrong. Why get stuck on only one point?



DW_a_mom
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30 Dec 2009, 2:56 pm

My religion does not require absolute loyalty to God and His word. And I'm part of a very large umbrella religion. While some may believe that is what is taught, it would be an over simplification and misunderstanding.

What we are taught is to love God first and foremost. As a result of that love you would, of course, want to honor what He asks of you. But what DOES He ask of you? Isn't that a more difficult question? The Bible is the Word of God has written by man. With holy guidance, but still by man. The leadership of the church, once again, is composed of men, not Gods. And when He speaks directly to you, it is often subtle and not all that certain whether you are thinking it up in your own head, or truly hearing the word of God.

As a result, there is by necessity a strong component of personal judgment and evaluation within your own conscious. You are asked to use the teachings of the church, together with life experience and maturity, to form a well developed conscious, and to use that conscious to guide your real life decisions. If something you believe God is asking of you go against your conscious, you are right to challenge it. You have a duty to challenge it, for perhaps you misunderstood.

And its not like God micromanages. He doesn't. It's about the big picture, not the small choices you make daily, between unimportant things.


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Giftorcurse
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30 Dec 2009, 3:43 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
My religion does not require absolute loyalty to God and His word. And I'm part of a very large umbrella religion. While some may believe that is what is taught, it would be an over simplification and misunderstanding.

What we are taught is to love God first and foremost. As a result of that love you would, of course, want to honor what He asks of you. But what DOES He ask of you? Isn't that a more difficult question? The Bible is the Word of God has written by man. With holy guidance, but still by man. The leadership of the church, once again, is composed of men, not Gods. And when He speaks directly to you, it is often subtle and not all that certain whether you are thinking it up in your own head, or truly hearing the word of God.

As a result, there is by necessity a strong component of personal judgment and evaluation within your own conscious. You are asked to use the teachings of the church, together with life experience and maturity, to form a well developed conscious, and to use that conscious to guide your real life decisions. If something you believe God is asking of you go against your conscious, you are right to challenge it. You have a duty to challenge it, for perhaps you misunderstood.

And its not like God micromanages. He doesn't. It's about the big picture, not the small choices you make daily, between unimportant things.


You sound just like that Jesus freak friend of mine.


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DW_a_mom
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30 Dec 2009, 4:10 pm

Giftorcurse wrote:

You sound just like that Jesus freak friend of mine.


Does that mean you have no interest in understanding the distinction I was making, and will hold to your original interpretation regardless? I don't know anyone in real life who would consider me a Jesus freak. Just because I belong to a faith family does not mean I stopped thinking for myself, or started pushing it onto others.


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Giftorcurse
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30 Dec 2009, 4:41 pm

Let me tell you about my view of God: he is self-righteous, narcissistic, psychopathic, megalomaniacal sadist who takes pleasure ruining lives and sending whoever the f**k he wants to Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't be suprised if I went to the former and found him playing Call of Duty with Hitler.


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DW_a_mom
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30 Dec 2009, 6:44 pm

Giftorcurse wrote:
Let me tell you about my view of God: he is self-righteous, narcissistic, psychopathic, megalomaniacal sadist who takes pleasure ruining lives and sending whoever the f**k he wants to Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't be suprised if I went to the former and found him playing Call of Duty with Hitler.


Then why even discuss it?


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leejosepho
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30 Dec 2009, 6:55 pm

Giftorcurse wrote:
If there's one thing that bothers me about organized religion, it is the fact that some stress that one must have absolute loyalty to God and his word.


That inconsistency stems from some overall ignorance and misunderstanding and is a great part of why there are so many different religions, or even any at all. In any case, the only "loyalty" that is truly expected is completely voluntary.


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Sand
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30 Dec 2009, 6:58 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
Let me tell you about my view of God: he is self-righteous, narcissistic, psychopathic, megalomaniacal sadist who takes pleasure ruining lives and sending whoever the f**k he wants to Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't be suprised if I went to the former and found him playing Call of Duty with Hitler.


Then why even discuss it?


Are you censoring somebody with a conviction that something is wrong with religion?



DW_a_mom
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30 Dec 2009, 7:49 pm

Sand wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
Let me tell you about my view of God: he is self-righteous, narcissistic, psychopathic, megalomaniacal sadist who takes pleasure ruining lives and sending whoever the f**k he wants to Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't be suprised if I went to the former and found him playing Call of Duty with Hitler.


Then why even discuss it?


Are you censoring somebody with a conviction that something is wrong with religion?


No, it's an honest question. I don't, personally, understand bringing up a topic and then being disdainful of a position that isn't exactly equal to your own, which is the attitude she showed about what I posted. When someone posts on this board, I would assume they are expecting to hear contrary positions and, thus, would have some interest in those contrary positions even when disagreeing. Or, maybe a poster on this board has an agenda, in that because of their personal beliefs they feel anyone who does have faith, should be converted away from it - in which case, I wonder if they know and admit that is their agenda. Or are they just venting? Knowing which of the above it is helps me know what or if to respond.


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Sand
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30 Dec 2009, 7:54 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Sand wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
Let me tell you about my view of God: he is self-righteous, narcissistic, psychopathic, megalomaniacal sadist who takes pleasure ruining lives and sending whoever the f**k he wants to Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't be suprised if I went to the former and found him playing Call of Duty with Hitler.


Then why even discuss it?


Are you censoring somebody with a conviction that something is wrong with religion?


No, it's an honest question. I don't, personally, understand bringing up a topic and then being disdainful of a position that isn't exactly equal to your own, which is the attitude she showed about what I posted. When someone posts on this board, I would assume they are expecting to hear contrary positions and, thus, would have some interest in those contrary positions even when disagreeing. Or, maybe a poster on this board has an agenda, in that because of their personal beliefs they feel anyone who does have faith, should be converted away from it - in which case, I wonder if they know and admit that is their agenda. Or are they just venting? Knowing which of the above it is helps me know what or if to respond.


Anyone with a strong concept of what is and what is not has an agenda. All statements about faith or a lack of faith are statements about basic convictions and to assume that they should be unassailable and untouchable defeats the whole motivation of presenting a conviction for discussion. To prevent that discussion is censoring.



DW_a_mom
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30 Dec 2009, 7:58 pm

Sand wrote:
To prevent that discussion is censoring.


No one is trying to prevent a discussion.


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leejosepho
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30 Dec 2009, 8:06 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Or are they just venting?


My guess would be along that kind of line.


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TheOddGoat
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30 Dec 2009, 8:11 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:

You sound just like that Jesus freak friend of mine.


Does that mean you have no interest in understanding the distinction I was making, and will hold to your original interpretation regardless? I don't know anyone in real life who would consider me a Jesus freak. Just because I belong to a faith family does not mean I stopped thinking for myself, or started pushing it onto others.


So you must believe god is flawed?

Otherwise, by saying the bible had holy guidance, you are saying it was guided perfectly and is therefore perfect.

If not, you must believe god is not perfect.

Anyway, thanks for calling me a fool who is incapable of good deeds again.



Giftorcurse
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30 Dec 2009, 8:13 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Sand wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
Let me tell you about my view of God: he is self-righteous, narcissistic, psychopathic, megalomaniacal sadist who takes pleasure ruining lives and sending whoever the f**k he wants to Heaven or Hell. I wouldn't be suprised if I went to the former and found him playing Call of Duty with Hitler.


Then why even discuss it?


Are you censoring somebody with a conviction that something is wrong with religion?


No, it's an honest question. I don't, personally, understand bringing up a topic and then being disdainful of a position that isn't exactly equal to your own, which is the attitude she showed about what I posted. When someone posts on this board, I would assume they are expecting to hear contrary positions and, thus, would have some interest in those contrary positions even when disagreeing. Or, maybe a poster on this board has an agenda, in that because of their personal beliefs they feel anyone who does have faith, should be converted away from it - in which case, I wonder if they know and admit that is their agenda. Or are they just venting? Knowing which of the above it is helps me know what or if to respond.


What do you think I am? A Satanist? A commie?


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ruveyn
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30 Dec 2009, 8:22 pm

Giftorcurse wrote:
If there's one thing that bothers me about organized religion, it is the fact that some stress that one must have absolute loyalty to God and his word. Personally, I find that to be a crock; human beings have the right to form their identity. We don't allow some debatedly fictional entity to do the job.


Which god?

ruveyn