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Fuzzy
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14 Jan 2010, 10:17 am

It makes people on earth miserable. Reject religion. Make the living world a better place.

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rmctagg09
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14 Jan 2010, 10:21 am

Really now, using one extreme example is the epitome of the strawman fallacy.



Fuzzy
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14 Jan 2010, 10:32 am

rmctagg09 wrote:
Really now, using one extreme example is the epitome of the strawman fallacy.


Oh I am sorry. Would you rather I relate the story of how my friends little brother died in an accident? And several months later, his other brother, in a fit of despondency took his own life as well?

I mean, I dont HAVE to use a strawman. I just softened the moral lesson for you a bit,


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rmctagg09
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14 Jan 2010, 10:52 am

Fuzzy wrote:
rmctagg09 wrote:
Really now, using one extreme example is the epitome of the strawman fallacy.


Oh I am sorry. Would you rather I relate the story of how my friends little brother died in an accident? And several months later, his other brother, in a fit of despondency took his own life as well?

I mean, I dont HAVE to use a strawman. I just softened the moral lesson for you a bit,

I'm sorry about what happened to your friends brothers. Hell, my own cousin died in a car accident back in December. I just don't see how this shows a problem with heaven.



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14 Jan 2010, 11:09 am

:hmph:


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14 Jan 2010, 11:29 am

Heaven is a silly notion, but I still believe that energy never dies.


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Keith
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14 Jan 2010, 11:43 am

If heaven is "paradise" does that mean everyone sees it as the same? Always warm (whatever) the same people, the same way people treat each other. No bitching, etc. How can that be heaven. There has to be two sides to it for equilibrium. Otherwise you no longer keep your human traits as is once thought.

Just another angle for someone to "correct" or to open peoples eyes to see my view



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14 Jan 2010, 11:45 am

I am not sure that people killing themselves is just a heaven thing. I dunno, maybe if a survey was done on the matter, I would be less suspicious. However, as it stands, we just have a speculation that is unsupported by any body of evidence.



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14 Jan 2010, 11:51 am

In the business of herding humans, I've personally found convincing them to be good people and work together in a society with the carrot of a great after-life, and the stick of continuous surveillence by a entity superior to them works better than simply telling them "It means everyone gets along better."

But you know, TV dreams and cameras everywhere will suffice if the former isn't to their taste anymore.



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14 Jan 2010, 2:35 pm

Magnus wrote:
but I still believe that energy never dies.

And somehow energy=person? Energy separates. Once the impulses in your brain no longer have a system in which to form a mind, there is no mind. Just because "energy never dies" doesn't mean that you don't cease to be. "You" is a much more complex concept than "energy". To say that just because energy can't be destroyed, the mind can't be destroyed, is just about as logical as saying that thick paper can't be ruined by a person blowing on it, therefore a house of cards will not fall down if you blow on it.


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DentArthurDent
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14 Jan 2010, 4:41 pm

The whole its 'gods will' and 'gone to heaven' thing is a construct to come to terms with horrible events. For some people it provides solace, for me it is just downright annoying, and given the right circumstances could make me very angry. I just wish people could mature, face life within the bounds of reality and throw away this need for fantasy.


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dddhgg
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14 Jan 2010, 4:48 pm

A more serious flaw, I think, is that not everyone I love will be in it, at least if it's true that you can only be saved by faith. Of course it is said that the love we will be experiencing from God will transcend all earthly bonds of love and friendship, yet I cannot but feel that it will then, in a very deep sense, not be me anymore who is in Heaven if I cannot grieve for those who didn't make it past the gate, because I feel I am at last partly made into who I am by the people I love. But grief (or regret at the very least) is a negative emotion, and doesn't really seem compatible with the concept of paradise.


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Vince
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14 Jan 2010, 4:51 pm

Another moral problem with the concept of Heaven and Hell is this:
Assumption no. 1: Good people who die go to a happy place, which they deserve.
Assumption no. 2: Bad people who die go to an unhappy place, which they deserve.
Based on these assumptions, it doesn't matter who gets murdered, as everyone who does get murdered gets exactly what they deserve - their just rewards or their just punishment.
Therefore, randomly murdering people doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't deserve it.
Therefore, randomly murdering people is just fine, except for the fact that the person who performs the acts will go to hell on the technicality of performing the technically evil act, which he deserves.
Therefore, a person who is utterly convinced that he is already doomed to Hell no matter what he will do can fully justify randomly murdering people as automatically fair to everyone involved and having no negative consequences what-so-ever.


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monsterland
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14 Jan 2010, 5:24 pm

Keith wrote:
If heaven is "paradise" does that mean everyone sees it as the same? Always warm (whatever) the same people, the same way people treat each other. No bitching, etc. How can that be heaven. There has to be two sides to it for equilibrium. Otherwise you no longer keep your human traits as is once thought.

Just another angle for someone to "correct" or to open peoples eyes to see my view


Heaven is a perfect mix of stillness and change, old and new, a place where you can create and explore infinitely.

Just a thought ;)



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14 Jan 2010, 6:40 pm

dddhgg wrote:
A more serious flaw, I think, is that not everyone I love will be in it, at least if it's true that you can only be saved by faith. Of course it is said that the love we will be experiencing from God will transcend all earthly bonds of love and friendship, yet I cannot but feel that it will then, in a very deep sense, not be me anymore who is in Heaven if I cannot grieve for those who didn't make it past the gate, because I feel I am at last partly made into who I am by the people I love. But grief (or regret at the very least) is a negative emotion, and doesn't really seem compatible with the concept of paradise.

Yeah... that has come to mind to me before.

Actually, I have a universalist friend who argues that the reasons you are giving are part of the reason why he thinks all people to be saved.

Also, in order for heaven to be heaven, I have to change in ways that may make me unrecognizable to myself. I mean, if heaven is the perfect world, then think about it. Every morose feeling, agitation, or even minor cognitive flaw or false belief has to be gotten rid of. The question is, what kind of person is left over after all of that? It seems hard to distinguish the intrinisic me, from what I think, how I think, or what I believe.



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14 Jan 2010, 6:58 pm

Vince wrote:
Magnus wrote:
but I still believe that energy never dies.

And somehow energy=person? Energy separates. Once the impulses in your brain no longer have a system in which to form a mind, there is no mind. Just because "energy never dies" doesn't mean that you don't cease to be. "You" is a much more complex concept than "energy". To say that just because energy can't be destroyed, the mind can't be destroyed, is just about as logical as saying that thick paper can't be ruined by a person blowing on it, therefore a house of cards will not fall down if you blow on it.


So what if there is no single mindedness after we die. There is a higher reality than that which we can perceive.


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As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

-Pythagoras