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Salonfilosoof
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28 Jan 2010, 4:05 am

Markie wrote:
Salonfilosoof wrote:
Such a sick and perverted world we live in.....

Oh, it's much worse than you think. You think "zoophiles" raping animals are bad?
It's much much worse: The truth is: Zoophiles raping animals are used as a scape-goat for the million- and billion-fold rape, mutilation and torture our society inflicts upon animals, both sexually and non-sexually. There are so many more crimes committed against animals, by NON-zoophiles, that pointing fingers at zoophiles, even if they are indeed bestialists claiming to be zoophiles and raping animals, is just a way of our society to try VERY HARD to conceal the true crimes, the million-fold sexual mutilation of castration, vivisection and animal testing, factory-farming of animals, etc.
In my view, the REAL problem is the status of animals, that they count as slaves for humans and do not count as persons, how mgran so correctly put it.


I'm aware of this. It just keeps amazing me in how many different ways humans mistreat other humans or animals and how common this problem really is.

Markie wrote:
But there is hope. Sometimes people see how sick and perverted our world is. And sometimes we're even more lucky, and they can tell us about it. And sometimes, very VERY rarely, they're even really good at telling us about it. I know I'm not. But I think James Cameron is with his movie Avatar! (Sorry, I'm in love with that movie, I'm not usually the big Hollywood blockbuster supporter!)


I haven't seen it yet, but I've been told that Avatar has a shallow "oh my God us evil Westerners are killing Indians"-story in typical Hollywood fashion and with only very little insight in the evils of modern capitalism.

I see no hope, to be honest. Mankind is just too corrupt and petty.



Markie
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28 Jan 2010, 7:47 pm

Salonfilosoof wrote:
Markie wrote:
But there is hope. Sometimes people see how sick and perverted our world is. And sometimes we're even more lucky, and they can tell us about it. And sometimes, very VERY rarely, they're even really good at telling us about it. I know I'm not. But I think James Cameron is with his movie Avatar! (Sorry, I'm in love with that movie, I'm not usually the big Hollywood blockbuster supporter!)


I haven't seen it yet, but I've been told that Avatar has a shallow "oh my God us evil Westerners are killing Indians"-story in typical Hollywood fashion and with only very little insight in the evils of modern capitalism.

Yes, that's true. It really is "us evil Westerners are killing Indians" and it in a VERY typical Hollywood fashion, presented very simply and bluntly.
But I think that's exactly the beauty. The bluntness how this is presented, in my eyes, is EXACTLY what makes this movie so good and James Cameron my personal HERO. I meant it is one rare thing for indie films to criticize Westerners. But for Hollywood to do so too, in its usual blunt fashion, or perhaps EVEN BLUNTER!! !!, THAT is what's so awesome.
The plot is simple, but boy does it feel *GOOD* if you have issues with Westerners!
And I guess I do.

For more on Avatar, see this thread which I posted to:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt114921.html

There is also this thread which I've missed entirely and which I need to read up on:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt117244.html

Salonfilosoof wrote:
I see no hope, to be honest. Mankind is just too corrupt and petty.

The thing is, make the changes in your own life. That's what's important. And enjoy the rare moments when you see that others are seeing as well. :-)



Salonfilosoof
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29 Jan 2010, 6:03 am

Markie wrote:
Quote:
I haven't seen it yet, but I've been told that Avatar has a shallow "oh my God us evil Westerners are killing Indians"-story in typical Hollywood fashion and with only very little insight in the evils of modern capitalism.

Yes, that's true. It really is "us evil Westerners are killing Indians" and it in a VERY typical Hollywood fashion, presented very simply and bluntly.
But I think that's exactly the beauty. The bluntness how this is presented, in my eyes, is EXACTLY what makes this movie so good and James Cameron my personal HERO. I meant it is one rare thing for indie films to criticize Westerners. But for Hollywood to do so too, in its usual blunt fashion, or perhaps EVEN BLUNTER!! !!, THAT is what's so awesome.


Actually, Western civilisation is constantly attacked by Hollywood and Western man is ALWAYS represented as an evil usurper and exploiter of other peoples and animals. Maybe you've just been watching the wrong films.

Personally I don't like the inherent racism of such perspectives (white man actually tends to be MOST generous and caring towards other races and species whereas the Zionist racist Jews in Hollywood who produce these films tend to be LEAST generous and caring) and the superficial nature makes it pretty much worthless for anything else but encouraging feelings of guilt among the White suburbian middle class who have actually only little in common with the corporate moguls who act like the villains in "Avatar".

Markie wrote:
The plot is simple, but boy does it feel *GOOD* if you have issues with Westerners!
And I guess I do.


I have no issues with Westerners. I have issues with the post-enlightenment socio-political movements that corrupted Western culture and indoctrinated Western man. Western man is not the problem.

Markie wrote:
The thing is, make the changes in your own life. That's what's important. And enjoy the rare moments when you see that others are seeing as well. :-)


Still.... my future kids will be forced to go to the same schools as the kids of sociopaths, animal rapists and plain antisocial individuals. How will this influence them?!?



Markie
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29 Jan 2010, 11:30 am

Salonfilosoof wrote:
Actually, Western civilisation is constantly attacked by Hollywood and Western man is ALWAYS represented as an evil usurper and exploiter of other peoples and animals. Maybe you've just been watching the wrong films.

Perhaps I have been watching some of the wrong films. I think to say that Hollywood is constantly attacking Western man is not true though or at least an exaggeration. I've seen "Emerald Forest" (loved it) and "Dances with Wolves" (sort of liked it) and "Princess Mononoke" (that wasn't made in Hollywood, was it?).
Besides "Dances with Wolves", non of these productions were blockbusters though. What's more, what is unique to Avatar is taking this subject to a non-human species. :-)

Salonfilosoof wrote:
Personally I don't like the inherent racism of such perspectives (white man actually tends to be MOST generous and caring towards other races and species whereas the Zionist racist Jews in Hollywood who produce these films tend to be LEAST generous and caring)

I don't like western man's inherent speciesism.
I don't think white man has the badge of "MOST generous and caring towards other races and species" either. I mean there are worse as you mention, but also better, perhaps you are just not aware of them because you are a white man...?
All that's not the point though. Criticism, such as in Avatar is justified if there is room for improvement, irrelevant of the relative position of white man to other races and cultures.
I am a white man and I measure white man's deeds by my own ideals, not by the deeds of other races and cultures. And there is room for improvement. Go ask the oppressed. I won't give you the courtesy of naming them for you. Do your homework. (Sorry, know that sounded snotty...)


Salonfilosoof wrote:
and the superficial nature makes it pretty much worthless for anything else but encouraging feelings of guilt among the White suburbian middle class who have actually only little in common with the corporate moguls who act like the villains in "Avatar".

The corporate moguls cannot do anything which the White suburbian middle class vastly disapproves of. That's the point.
I'm all against American superficiality, but I honor it where it is relevant.
Without superficiality, Avatar could not be so enormously and strongly critical.
Imagine the main character in Avatar saying something like "Hey, we're treating the Na'vi just like we treated the Palestinains!! !" Do you think something like that could pass in Hollywood?
Besides that, nobody knows what James Cameron really thought when making the movie. That's TOP SECRET. ;-)

Salonfilosoof wrote:
I have no issues with Westerners. I have issues with the post-enlightenment socio-political movements that corrupted Western culture and indoctrinated Western man. Western man is not the problem.

He is part of the problem. He is the most successful. That's why he has the most power.
And using power without harming the innocent, THAT is something which EVEN Western man was not born to, no matter how much you might think Western man might be some kind of a "master" or more valuable race.
(No pun intended, correct me if I'm wrong.)
As to the naive dreams about multi-cultural societies where all differences dissolve themselves and blend away eventually, that is an entirely different problem.

Salonfilosoof wrote:
Still.... my future kids will be forced to go to the same schools as the kids of sociopaths, animal rapists and plain antisocial individuals. How will this influence them?!?

I hope it will toughen them up, make them aware of some real problems in society. (Such as VAST overpopulation of our planet!! ! ;-)) Without loosing the ability to think for themselves. And one day, they might have a genius idea how to solve said problems. Such ideas come not from abstract study, but from living in the problem.



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29 Jan 2010, 12:49 pm

Markie wrote:
Perhaps I have been watching some of the wrong films. I think to say that Hollywood is constantly attacking Western man is not true though or at least an exaggeration.


If you analyse 8 decades of Hollywood films, you'll find that Jews, Blacks and Asians are generally presented in a more positive light whereas Whites and Arabs are generally presented in a less positive light in an attempt to develop the image of Jews, Blacks and Asians as victims and Whites and Arabs as victimisers, which since '68 has graduately become the dominant viewpoint in academe due to the consistent political activism or the radical leftists.

The reality is very different, though. While it is true that Western man has been the dominant power during the past millenium and commited many crimes against other peoples during that era, people of other races have commited crimes no less cruel and vicious throughout their history. In fact, of all races Whites generally tend to be most forgiving and least cruel towards their enemies. They also tend to be more individualistic and more prone to accepting outsiders within their community. Therefore, portraying Whites and Arabs as victimisers and and pretty much everyone else as victims is an obvious distortion of reality to anyone with a yota of understanding about modern geopolitics.

Markie wrote:
I've seen "Emerald Forest" (loved it) and "Dances with Wolves" (sort of liked it) and "Princess Mononoke" (that wasn't made in Hollywood, was it?).
Besides "Dances with Wolves", non of these productions were blockbusters though.


What about "Amistad", "Schindler's List", "American History X" or "Mississippi Burning"? All these films distort reality by portraying White man as an prejudiced and dangerous, whereas other races are portrayed as innocent victims. All four are blockbusters and just a few of the many examples.

Markie wrote:
What's more, what is unique to Avatar is taking this subject to a non-human species. :-)


Not really. "Gorillas in the Mist", "Instinct", "Happy Feet" are a few examples where human behavior towards animals is strongly criticised. The film "Enemy Mine" deals with human attitude towards aliens they're at war with and "District 9" - like Avatar - deals with an intelligent alien species being treated as an inferior species and the entire focus of both films is on the inter-species interaction. So I don't really see what's supposed to be new in this film besides the gorgeous hi-tech special effects?!?

Markie wrote:
I don't like western man's inherent speciesism.


You mean to say Judeo-Christianity's inherent speciesism. The orriginal traditions of Western man were not speciesist by any means, but they became destroyed and replaced by a Middle-Eastern religion called "Christianity". Much of the evil attributed to Western man actually orriginated from Christian traditions which themselves orriginate from within Jewish culture. The speciesism you're referring to is as alien to our pre-Christian ancestors as it is to you and me.

Markie wrote:
I don't think white man has the badge of "MOST generous and caring towards other races and species" either. I mean there are worse as you mention, but also better, perhaps you are just not aware of them because you are a white man...?


While it is true that Buddhism and Hinduism preach compassion and respect towards both fellow man and animal life, it is important one realises that Buddhism is derived from Hinduism and Hinduism is derived from an ancient Indo-European religion the Nordic and Greek-Roman religions were also derived from. In spite of their roots in Buddhism and Hinduism, you'll find that Asians generally show less respect towards animals than Westerners. Especially the Chinese are known for extreme animal abuse, however this is not an exclusively Chinese problem.

Further, almost every non-White people tends to be pretty nationalistic and tends to radically oppose multiculturalism in their country of origin whereas most Whites tend to be opposed to nationalism and very welcoming towards multiculturalism. The reason for this is White man's tendency towards individualism, whereas other cultures have more collectivist featues.

Markie wrote:
All that's not the point though. Criticism, such as in Avatar is justified if there is room for improvement, irrelevant of the relative position of white man to other races and cultures.


My point was that Avatar is nothing but a shallow film that has nothing to offer to the world but yet another anti-white message that's not too orriginal and innovative special effects.

Markie wrote:
I am a white man and I measure white man's deeds by my own ideals, not by the deeds of other races and cultures.


On cannot judge a group of people by the behavior of one individual within that group. Only by analysing the sociological, anthropological, medical and psychological data on a significant portion of the population can one compare different ethno-cultural groups in a reasonable fashion.

Markie wrote:
And there is room for improvement. Go ask the oppressed. I won't give you the courtesy of naming them for you. Do your homework. (Sorry, know that sounded snotty...)


White Western man is oppressed. We've become white collar slaves to an impersonal corporate system run by people of various ethno-cultural backgrounds (although with Jewish bankers at the very top). While this slavery may be less uncomfortable than the povery of the third world, this doesn't make us any more free and any more in control of our own destinies.

Also, the inherent bias against Western heterosexual man within the corrupted Western culture of the post-'68 era has made Western heterosexual man the most discriminated of all within his own living space. Women, homosexuals and non-Whites are all given special advantages Western man is not granted.

Markie wrote:
The corporate moguls cannot do anything which the White suburbian middle class vastly disapproves of.


Wrong. They can do anything they want with the proper indoctrination through the education system and media. Most Whites are entirely oblivious to the sociopolitical reality of the world they live in because they're consistently indoctrinated by the corporate system on a daily basis. Many people warn for 1984 to become a reality, but in fact we've already moved way beyond Orwell's dystopian fiction.

Markie wrote:
Without superficiality, Avatar could not be so enormously and strongly critical.


Without superficiality, Avatar might have been a relevant film. Now it isn't.

Markie wrote:
Imagine the main character in Avatar saying something like "Hey, we're treating the Na'vi just like we treated the Palestinains!! !" Do you think something like that could pass in Hollywood?


Considering the obvious anti-Arab bias of Hollywood, that would be pretty impossible.

Markie wrote:
He is part of the problem. He is the most successful. That's why he has the most power.


Actually, Jews are most powerful today. Even though they only make up a small percentage of any country's population besides Israel's, AIPAC and the ADL are two of the most powerful lobbies in the world, Israel is the only country allowed to violate human rights on a daily basis on its own territory, Jews dominate the mainstream media and political parties, Jews dominate banking, etc. White man has largely become subservient to Jewish interests, especially in the US.

Are you aware of the fact that the US Chief of Staff of a former Jewish banker, that one of his two deputies is a Jewish member of the Council on Foreign Relations and that Obama's senior "advisor" (David Axelrod) is Jewish as well? Would you consider that normal for a country where only a few percent of the people are Jewish?

You do know that the American president is but a puppet, right?!?

Markie wrote:
And using power without harming the innocent, THAT is something which EVEN Western man was not born to, no matter how much you might think Western man might be some kind of a "master" or more valuable race.


Western man is not perfect, but the radical shift from White supremacism to multiculturalism in a matter of decades shows Western man's openmindedness and naivity towards other ethnic and cultural groups. White man is unique in this.

Markie wrote:
As to the naive dreams about multi-cultural societies where all differences dissolve themselves and blend away eventually, that is an entirely different problem.


Actually, there's a direct correlation between Hollywood propaganda, pre-WW2 communism, post-'68 liberalism and the multiculturalist movement.