what if it just was?

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SirLogiC
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15 Feb 2010, 10:03 am

So this is a thought I've had. I guess this might be a form of thought experiment? Don't take it as real science, just as something to think about.

Lets just say that scientists discovered conclusively as fact that:

the universe was curved- going in any direction long enough will bring you back to where you started, even if it takes many billions of years
the universe was finite in mass and volume- any apparent changes are thus just a reconfiguration of what was already there
the universe had no beginning, so time had no beginning. Also meaning the universe and time couldn't have an end.**

So essentially the universe is constantly changing but never had a start, it just "is". No beginning and no end.

How would you handle hearing that?

People have a long history of trying to explain things they don't understand. Creation stories exist in many religions past and present. Now science is also trying to explain how things started.

Do you think people could handle something like the universe not having a beginning or would they always try to find a way to explain a beginning, against fact and reason? How do you think religions would handle it, creation stories suddenly being disproved beyond all doubt?

**just as a small nut buster- can something with no beginning have an end?

Sand
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15 Feb 2010, 10:24 am

SirLogiC wrote:

The Big Bang which was a beginning is fairly clearly nailed down.

Last edited by Sand on 15 Feb 2010, 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

PLA
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15 Feb 2010, 11:09 am

A static model. Some people have already handled that, although most of those might have considered it so common-sense as to be proven without actual evidence. The psychological effects should be approximately the same.

Quote:

**just as a small nut buster- can something with no beginning have an end?

Unsure. Apart from curvature, one would have to deal with infinities - and infinities are just plain weird.

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TheOddGoat
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15 Feb 2010, 4:39 pm

Sand wrote:

SirLogiC wrote:

The Big Bang which was a beginning is fairly clearly nailed down.

You kinda ignored the point of OP.

And beginning of universe, but not beginning of existence.

Quote:

can something with no beginning have an end?

Yes....

And I am going to use SUCH a cheap example.

Imagine a chair has always existed in fully realised chair-form.

Break it, and the chair with no beginning has reached an end.

While the bits are still there, the "chairness" had no beginning but had an end.

Philologos
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16 Feb 2010, 9:11 am

I think it works out to the endless Big Bang ./ Crunch cycle untwisted so you don't go through a zero oint. Mys sister when in math played with the latter and told me about it. My reaction then and now is:

Hell is Hell.

I need to find an exit and get off the highway.

ryan7585
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17 Feb 2010, 6:09 am

Well. I think it's quite possible.... Even likely. I do like to think we're in the middle of something really exciting though, so it might be kinda disappointing to find that out

PS: MAN the smileys here suck...

Sand
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17 Feb 2010, 6:44 am

TheOddGoat wrote:

Sand wrote:

SirLogiC wrote:

The Big Bang which was a beginning is fairly clearly nailed down.

You kinda ignored the point of OP.

And beginning of universe, but not beginning of existence.

Quote:

can something with no beginning have an end?

Next time you run across a beginningless chair, let me know. All indications are this universe had a beginning. And there are indications.

ryan7585
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17 Feb 2010, 7:12 am

Sand wrote:

The Big Bang which was a beginning is fairly clearly nailed down.

That's the beginning of existence as we know it, not existence itself.

Big difference. :!:

Sand
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17 Feb 2010, 8:08 am

ryan7585 wrote:

Sand wrote:

The Big Bang which was a beginning is fairly clearly nailed down.

That's the beginning of existence as we know it, not existence itself.

Big difference. :!:

OK, what existed before the universe (including time)?

Descartes
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17 Feb 2010, 11:10 am

Sand wrote:

ryan7585 wrote:

Sand wrote:

The Big Bang which was a beginning is fairly clearly nailed down.

That's the beginning of existence as we know it, not existence itself.

Big difference. :!:

OK, what existed before the universe (including time)?

Some scientiests theorize that there was some other universe that existed before this one. It's all a part of the Multiverse theory, in which universes are destroyed only to create new ones.

And a lot of people have a hard enough time accepting the current scientific theories as to the origin of the universe. Many people would rather just cling to their religion despite conflicting evidence. The truth is people will believe what they want to believe and no amount of education will convince them otherwise.

ryan7585
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17 Feb 2010, 11:26 am

Sand wrote:

ryan7585 wrote:

OK, what existed before the universe (including time)?

How should I know? That's beyond what is possible to know. And anyway, they recently discovered the universe is quite possibly a giant hologram, which throws half our existing theories for a loop and firmly concretes the other half. We don't know about that yet. We're learning though, and future generations will know more. It's the bane of the human condition that we're inclined to assume that the sum of human knowledge is somewhere close to the sum of all that is knowable.

Our brains are designed to think in terms of time. To ask what happened before the beginning of time makes no sense. What is the right question? We may never know.

Sand
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17 Feb 2010, 12:43 pm

ryan7585 wrote:

Sand wrote:

ryan7585 wrote:

OK, what existed before the universe (including time)?

If you don't know then simply accept you don't know and stop talking about existence before the big bang. There is all sorts of speculation in that area but nothing more.

ryan7585
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17 Feb 2010, 1:02 pm

Sand wrote:

If you don't know then simply accept you don't know and stop talking about existence before the big bang. There is all sorts of speculation in that area but nothing more.

I know that. I was telling you that.

PLA
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18 Feb 2010, 3:33 am

ryan7585 wrote:

[...] they recently discovered the universe is quite possibly a giant hologram [...]

If, by "recently", you mean "in the mists of prehistory".

ryan7585
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18 Feb 2010, 11:57 am

PLA wrote:

ryan7585 wrote:

[...] they recently discovered the universe is quite possibly a giant hologram [...]

If, by "recently", you mean "in the mists of prehistory".

care to elaborate?

PLA
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18 Feb 2010, 4:49 pm

ryan7585 wrote:

PLA wrote:

ryan7585 wrote:

[...] they recently discovered the universe is quite possibly a giant hologram [...]

If, by "recently", you mean "in the mists of prehistory".

care to elaborate?

Though popularised in Western thought as the Cartesian daemon in the 1640s, the idea had lurched about in human beliefs and thought experiments for a very long time even before that.

Unless, of course, I have utterly misconstrued what you meant to indicate by the words "giant hologram", in which case I would necessarily be off target.

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