WWII Tank Designs As An Analogy
iamnotaparakeet
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WWII Tank Designs As An Analogy
By Jonathan Sarfati
- The thicker the armor, the more resistant to shelling damage a tank would be. However, there is a limit. One of the biggest German tanks was the Elefant (actually a Panzerjager (tank hunter)). This had 200 millimeter thick armor, which protected it very well from Soviet anti-tank weapons. But its immense [weight] of 70 tonnes meant that it used up massive amounts of fuel (1100 Liters per 100 kilometers or 1/4th mile per gallon), it broke down frequently, and couldn't use most of the roads and bridges in Italy. This is a case of over-optimization in one feature at the expense of overall functionality.
- A tank without a revolving turret would seem to be a huge design flaw, because the whole tank must turn to hit the target. But the Germans made huge numbers of such a turret-less tank, called the Sturmgeschutz ('assault gun'). These were quite successful, because the lack of a turret had compensating advantages, such as the lower profile (so harder to hit), and more space for a crew and the ability to mount a more powerful gun. This illustrates that an apparent design flaw considered in isolation may be an advantage when the machine as a whole is considered.
Also, this was an easier, cheaper and quicker tank to make, since it didn't need the complex machinery of the turret, as well as needing far fewer ball bearing, which were in short supply in Germany. Similarly, many living creatures lack some complex features, but are successful because they can develop quickly and in large numbers. - The Soviet T-34 tank is sometimes called the best tank of the war. When the Germans first met them, their own tanks were no match for them, because of its superior design features. It had a wide track, good suspension and large engine giving it unparalleled cross-country performance. Even more importantly, it had sloped armor. This means that the tank has a greater chance of deflecting a projectile, because of the more glancing blow. And even if it penetrated, the projectile had to pass through a greater distance of armor, thus losing more momentum. Eventually the Germans made very expensive and complex tanks that could outmatch the T-34, but this greatly slow production, so the Soviets heavily outnumbered them (the total figures for all Panther types was 6,557, and all Tiger types 2,027; but there were 22,559 of the T-34-85 alone).
From By Design, by Dr Jonathan Sarfati (and edited slightly by myself for formatting and usage of American grammar which I just personally prefer because I wasn't raised with the Queen's English), pages 192-193
Though I know they exist, name one.
No evidence of a designer has been produced. Anything that happened by "design" can be accounted for by natural/physical causes.
It took nature more than three billion years to produce a heavier than air flying machine but she succeeded. We call them birds, bats and flying bugs.
ruveyn
Though I know they exist, name one.
No evidence of a designer has been produced. Anything that happened by "design" can be accounted for by natural/physical causes.
It took nature more than three billion years to produce a heavier than air flying machine but she succeeded. We call them birds, bats and flying bugs.
ruveyn
We know of evolution, flawed arguments have been made for it, regardless of it's basis in evidence.
My challenge stands.
Though I know they exist, name one.
No evidence of a designer has been produced. Anything that happened by "design" can be accounted for by natural/physical causes.
It took nature more than three billion years to produce a heavier than air flying machine but she succeeded. We call them birds, bats and flying bugs.
ruveyn
We know of evolution, flawed arguments have been made for it, regardless of it's basis in evidence.
My challenge stands.
Nonsense. The evidence for evolution by natural selection is overwhelming. The evidence has been accumulating from a time well before Darwin's voyages to the Galapagos. Darwin put together evidence for a very Old Earth and for changes in the structure and from of living things. Doubt was being cast on the Genesis story well before Darwin. It is very simple: If you take Genesis literally then the age of the Earth (indeed, the age of the cosmos) is about six thousand years. If you look at the physical evidence it is billyuns and billyuns (as Carl Sagan would have said) of years. The biological evidence for living matter on this planet shows the earliest life to be one celled critters and that was the case for nearly three billion years. The fossils from the Devonian Shales indicate multicelled life forms to be more recent.
The creation story in Genesis, taken as literal, is a fairy tale. It is simply not true.
The emergence of several interrelated species of birds, lizards and turtles on the Galapagos indicate speciation. Either that, or God is a dunce and cannot make up His mind.
ruveyn
Though I know they exist, name one.
No evidence of a designer has been produced. Anything that happened by "design" can be accounted for by natural/physical causes.
It took nature more than three billion years to produce a heavier than air flying machine but she succeeded. We call them birds, bats and flying bugs.
ruveyn
We know of evolution, flawed arguments have been made for it, regardless of it's basis in evidence.
My challenge stands.
Nonsense. The evidence for evolution by natural selection is overwhelming. The evidence has been accumulating from a time well before Darwin's voyages to the Galapagos. Darwin put together evidence for a very Old Earth and for changes in the structure and from of living things. Doubt was being cast on the Genesis story well before Darwin. It is very simple: If you take Genesis literally then the age of the Earth (indeed, the age of the cosmos) is about six thousand years. If you look at the physical evidence it is billyuns and billyuns (as Carl Sagan would have said) of years. The biological evidence for living matter on this planet shows the earliest life to be one celled critters and that was the case for nearly three billion years. The fossils from the Devonian Shales indicate multicelled life forms to be more recent.
The creation story in Genesis, taken as literal, is a fairy tale. It is simply not true.
The emergence of several interrelated species of birds, lizards and turtles on the Galapagos indicate speciation. Either that, or God is a dunce and cannot make up His mind.
ruveyn
A valid theory obtains validation from several unconnected sources to gain validity. The more sources, the more the validity.On that basis there is no doubt whatsoever that God is a dunce which is the prime validification for the creation theory.
You're both repeating yourselves where I was trying to allow the op enough rope to hang itself.
If iamnotaparakeet had responded with, say a fallacious argument for evolution (for example it is entirely random chance but can still happen, without mentioning natural selection), it could be corrected. If it was not fallacious (such as science's current position), it would also refute what is proposed in the op.
He's arguing that "mistakes" in a creation (as represented by German armour) are not proof that it was NOT designed?
I don't know, maybe God could have though of a better use for prototype Tiger tank hulls than to mount an 88 on them and use them as ersatz giant tank-hunters rather than throwing them away. Seems Mr Sarfati isn't as familiar with his subject as he needs to be to use the analogies he does.
The Elefant or Ferdinand wasn't originally designed at all, it was simply a case of recycling the parts left over from another project: 100 spare Porsche prototypes for the Tiger 1. The Porsche Tiger was longer than the Henschel variant, and had the turret situated so far forward that it had difficulty operating in enclosed areas. The long barrel had a tendency to get jammed into the floor when negotiating ditches, and was so displaced because the engine took up so much room in the hull. Only one saw combat, as a command tank for its converted brethen. The conversion was mostly an armoured superstructure containing a long-barrelled 88, and extra 100mm plates bolted on to various key points. The Ferdinand became the Elefant after certain extras were added ( a machine gun for example)
"Functionality" problems due to increased weight didn't seem to prevent Ferdinands and Elefants from getting one of the highest kill ratios of the war either. Likewise, increased armour weight wasn't the reason it broke down so often (an over-complex engine was), so its a little disingenuous for Sarfati to imply as much. In fact the Elefant is just a bigger take on the Stug or "assault guns" he mentions. Whilst the Sturmgeschutz (Stug) did exist as a deliberately designed item, they were designed to be cheap and cheerful. The fact that they happened to be so effective due to low profile, crew comforts etc was merely a side-effect of that cost-cutting. The Germans were proficient at taking any armoured hull and finding a use for it (21st panzer was almost entirely equipped with knocked-off french armour) but most, if not all of the advantages of these conversions were unplanned. "Design Flaws" were not neccesarily mistakes but merely unavoidable occurences based on what was being used. (For example, the long 88 is HUGE and so the Elefant HAD to have a HUGE superstructure to hold it.
Vertical armour plates are not a "design flaw". Welding sloped armor plate is MUCH harder than dovetailing flat plates.. Mass producing flame cut beveled armor plate is a difficult process, and requires advanced tooling and weld electrodes that will penetrate the armor plate and fuse the base metal. The Russians had a breakthrough with this concept first, and only after studying Russian armour was Germany able to replicate it in the Panther/Tiger 11. The "flaw" is not in the design on vertically armoured vehicles, many of which were outstanding designs of that type, but in the woeful lack of research and development in most powers between the wars.
Ironically, Germans tanks (especially the Panther variants) became cheaper and less technical, as the T-34 became MORE complex and technical to overcome its own not inconsiderable design flaws (one or two of which WERE deliberate, such as the terrible crew comfort.)
Inaccuracy aside, I'm not sure how trying to prove that people design stuff that doesn't work very well proves that there is a god. An infallible creator would surely KNOW that sloped armour on ducks is fail before he designs it?
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
I don't know, maybe God could have though of a better use for prototype Tiger tank hulls than to mount an 88 on them and use them as ersatz giant tank-hunters rather than throwing them away. Seems Mr Sarfati isn't as familiar with his subject as he needs to be to use the analogies he does.
The Elefant or Ferdinand wasn't originally designed at all, it was simply a case of recycling the parts left over from another project: 100 spare Porsche prototypes for the Tiger 1. The Porsche Tiger was longer than the Henschel variant, and had the turret situated so far forward that it had difficulty operating in enclosed areas. The long barrel had a tendency to get jammed into the floor when negotiating ditches, and was so displaced because the engine took up so much room in the hull. Only one saw combat, as a command tank for its converted brethen. The conversion was mostly an armoured superstructure containing a long-barrelled 88, and extra 100mm plates bolted on to various key points. The Ferdinand became the Elefant after certain extras were added ( a machine gun for example)
"Functionality" problems due to increased weight didn't seem to prevent Ferdinands and Elefants from getting one of the highest kill ratios of the war either. Likewise, increased armour weight wasn't the reason it broke down so often (an over-complex engine was), so its a little disingenuous for Sarfati to imply as much. In fact the Elefant is just a bigger take on the Stug or "assault guns" he mentions. Whilst the Sturmgeschutz (Stug) did exist as a deliberately designed item, they were designed to be cheap and cheerful. The fact that they happened to be so effective due to low profile, crew comforts etc was merely a side-effect of that cost-cutting. The Germans were proficient at taking any armoured hull and finding a use for it (21st panzer was almost entirely equipped with knocked-off french armour) but most, if not all of the advantages of these conversions were unplanned. "Design Flaws" were not neccesarily mistakes but merely unavoidable occurences based on what was being used. (For example, the long 88 is HUGE and so the Elefant HAD to have a HUGE superstructure to hold it.
Vertical armour plates are not a "design flaw". Welding sloped armor plate is MUCH harder than dovetailing flat plates.. Mass producing flame cut beveled armor plate is a difficult process, and requires advanced tooling and weld electrodes that will penetrate the armor plate and fuse the base metal. The Russians had a breakthrough with this concept first, and only after studying Russian armour was Germany able to replicate it in the Panther/Tiger 11. The "flaw" is not in the design on vertically armoured vehicles, many of which were outstanding designs of that type, but in the woeful lack of research and development in most powers between the wars.
Ironically, Germans tanks (especially the Panther variants) became cheaper and less technical, as the T-34 became MORE complex and technical to overcome its own not inconsiderable design flaws (one or two of which WERE deliberate, such as the terrible crew comfort.)
Inaccuracy aside, I'm not sure how trying to prove that people design stuff that doesn't work very well proves that there is a god. An infallible creator would surely KNOW that sloped armour on ducks is fail before he designs it?
Indeed, Sarfati is speaking as if he is both an expert on 20th century tank designs and evolution, when he is in fact neither.
iamnotaparakeet
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Oh really, where was that claim made? Or is it just that he is speaking on the subjects of tank designs and evolution that he must be an authority on both in order to speak regarding either of them? Or is it that one must be an expert in both in order to speak against one, but not an expert in order to speak in favor of that same one?
iamnotaparakeet
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Oh really, where was that claim made? Or is it just that he is speaking on the subjects of tank designs and evolution that he must be an authority on both in order to speak regarding either of them? Or is it that one must be an expert in both in order to speak against one, but not an expert in order to speak in favor of that same one?
More that his analogies fail because he hasn't fully understood the nature of WW2 armoured design, or perhaps assumes that his readers will take his word for it, and not have the nouse to investigate deep enough to find the flaws?
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
iamnotaparakeet
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Age: 40
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Oh really, where was that claim made? Or is it just that he is speaking on the subjects of tank designs and evolution that he must be an authority on both in order to speak regarding either of them? Or is it that one must be an expert in both in order to speak against one, but not an expert in order to speak in favor of that same one?
More that his analogies fail because he hasn't fully understood the nature of WW2 armoured design, or perhaps assumes that his readers will take his word for it, and not have the nouse to investigate deep enough to find the flaws?
Did he claim there were no flaws?
iamnotaparakeet
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In terms of mass production, the vertical armor sounds like it should be a better design. However, in terms of impacts with projectiles you have the issue of the impacts being more efficient since they have a lot more opportunity to hit perpendicular to the armor surface than for armor that is angled. The armor then has to disperse more of the kinetic energy of the projectiles as they hit solidly, rather than allow for the projectiles to, more often, hit at an angle and retain kinetic energy as they are deflected.
In terms of mass production, the vertical armor sounds like it should be a better design. However, in terms of impacts with projectiles you have the issue of the impacts being more efficient since they have a lot more opportunity to hit perpendicular to the armor surface than for armor that is angled. The armor then has to disperse more of the kinetic energy of the projectiles as they hit solidly, rather than allow for the projectiles to, more often, hit at an angle and retain kinetic energy as they are deflected.
Which is the problem with the original analogy. He equates vertical armour in German designs to a "flaw" in design, whereas it is -to a given generation of armoured warfare - more than adequate. There is no flaw there. Its a little like suggesting that a wooden clinker-built ship is flawed merely because it is made out of wood and not iron.
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
