The existence of God

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In any case, I think that laying so much stress on something that can be translated non-literally with ease today seems questionable, at least unless some body of history is referenced to make the case.

It must be pretty obvious that I cannot take the whole business very seriously. Speculations on archeological fantasies is hardly much more than lightweight amusement.

You know what this reminds me of, I think that atheists who hate religion see it very similarly to the way I used to see major league sports. "Who needs them? What's the point? All they do is cause people to get into stupid fights and they don't provide society with any knowledge or truth. There are a lot of families that try to shove it down their children's throats and not give them any freedom to branch away from it. People could be doing much better things with their time so we should just get rid of it."

Well that is what it meant TO ME. But for a lot of other people it was a way for them to bond with their family, it gave people something to believe in and support when everything else seemed dark, and its apart of the society's culture. Who am I to tell people whether or not they can watch baseball just because it doesn't make sense to me.

Is it a problem when it enters the education system and teachers like my first grade teacher try to get everyone into praising baseball and the home team, OF COURSE IT IS, its not science and does not belong in a classroom, but that's no excuse to pry away it from a society's culture. The same goes for religion.

Nobody's prying anything away from anybody. To point out mistakes, idiocies, and downright viciousness is merely to indicate what they are. If you love that type of stuff, that's your choice.

I've been reading the bible again to figure out, separating myself from the institution and just going to the source, what's actually meant by doing God's will. Its something I notice for instance, we're not all built the same, not all built to do the same things or be the same people, and so the directions we go in, the stipulations we take with us, seem somewhat more tailored than a one-size-fits-all. That's not to say that some things seem universally immoral but what gets quite tricky is understanding the spirit of, not 'the law' but the rules behind the newer command as reinterpreted by Paul et. al. In life we're bags of chemicals, our bodies and minds are largely governed by stresses, strengths, limitations, emotions don't exactly come and go as much as anyone might hope at our behest, and its not to say that we can't control the output - we absolutely can, but it has a slight force in steering us in certain directions. I had a falling out with the notion of free will a while back and the bible seems to also hold a similar view, things are 100% predestined, when we come back to the issue of God being all light, all knowledge, all wisdom, being omniscient, omnipotent, etc., what's explained with the idea of sending the predestined to hell as much as heaven (forgetting the insult to intelligence "I didn't do it - you did it to yourself"), it doesn't compute. I'm not saying it isn't possible that there's just more to the story than what we know (ie. we lived in heaven before this maybe and the corrupt who made their decisions beforehand aren't being saved?) or maybe those aspects of the bible aren't fully on? I won't assume the later, I don't know, but still - there is a lot therein that just doesn't add up. This tends not to be any big problem for atheists but, I can't go that way either - what I've been able to draw from reality just doesn't lead me there.

You pointed out predestination specifically. I don't believe in predestination because it contradicts the idea that all may come freely to God. You have to consider what predestination IS and what it IS NOT.

There are those churches that put forth predestination, such the Presbyterians and Methodists. What's interesting to me is that in contemporary times the idea of predestination is downplayed, i.e. it doesn't really form a significant portion of doctrine in practice. There are a few within those circles that cling to the idea of predestination, but for the most part it seems to be a tradition for tradition's sake.

But that God has picked and chosen from the foundation of the world who gets in and who doesn't just makes no sense. It's really only the epistle writers (Paul) that make a big deal about "the elect." "The elect" ARE those who were chosen from the beginning of the world, but you have to think about who they are. To say that God just threw several billion names in a hat, drew from it, and henceforth closed the door is just wrong.

"The elect" can't be just these over here or just these over there, because, again, that violates the principle that salvation is available for EVERYONE. It also introduces another problem: The idea that unrepentant sinners belong in the kingdom of Heaven. How fair is it for someone to keep the faith and, believing it is in God's will to do so, does good for himself, his family, his friends, and others only to find out at the end believing and accepting Jesus' sacrifice and thus being Christ-like in action was not enough simply because his name didn't come up? Is it really fair to be a believer and do good things and be rejected from God's presence only because you were screwed from the beginning? Remember, a perfect and all-powerful God is also perfect in justice and mercy. Predestination in the sense that God has a set number for specific individual who, on no account of their faith, are specially reserved for Heaven is NOT just, NOT merciful, and NOT reflective of a perfect, all-powerful God. Therefore, it MUST be false.

Along those lines, consider this: If it really doesn't matter--either God has selected you for redemption or condemnation without regard to faith--then why bother coming to faith at all? Why not just live life based on your everyday whims, get drunk, stay high, don't get a job, don't care for your family, eat whatever you want and how much of it you want, and hang out with prostitutes? What does it matter if you make good decisions or not? Just live the life you want because it's the only one you're going to get. You MIGHT have an afterlife, or you MIGHT rot in Hell. It's a tossup anyway.

Except the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible calls all Christians to live a life according to the example set by Christ. We believe it, therefore we live it. And because of that kind of life, we want to do good things and see others come into the faith. James wrote "Faith without works is dead," which means that the best indicator for knowing someone is truly a believer in Christ is how they act. Now, true, not EVERYONE who does good things is a believer. If a good deed is not done in the name of Jesus (meaning an outward expression of faith and attempting to live a life according to the will of God), then it is done for some selfish motive--even if that motive is personal gratification or you think it's "just the right thing to do." Believers who do good things (not all do, but see the above quote from James) do so because they recognize the value of others in God's eyes and seek the best benefit of all as a result of their faith. That's why you have so many Heaven-bound Christians who, for various reasons such as personal crises, immature faith, and so on, don't have much more in Christ than fire insurance. Likewise, you have a lot of "good people" that lack the only thing that really matters: acceptance of God's mercy through the atonement of Jesus.

Those people, "the elect," are those people in a broad sense that God has chosen from the foundation of the world. It is a general statement, not a specific statement--all those in the past who walked in faith will have a share in God's kingdom along with those after Christ who place their faith in the Son of God. And because Jesus' gift of salvation is free to anyone willing to believe, than anyone willing to believe may count themselves as members of "the elect." The only predestination there can be is that those who come to faith, which could be anyone, are the ones that will be set apart for Heaven.

Free will is more of an extra-Biblical philosophical debate, and arguments one way or the other don't really go anywhere. It really doesn't matter which side you take, you still have the choice of whether to believe or not. Those who argue in favor of predestination are really arguing a philosophical point--if God knows everything, then He knows already who will make the choice. Okay, but by saying that God knows EVERYTHING, it means He also knows all the possibilities. He knows every path you CAN take and will try everything that does not violate free will nor His own nature to convince you to take the path of salvation. He knows all the times and places when and at which He will, in a sense, cross paths with you, and He knows whether there is a "point of no return" as well as when and if you will ever pass that point. All have an opportunity to make that choice. It is NOT something for you personally that God set out to do from the beginning.

I don't agree with some of the notions of Calvinists, but, techstepgener8tion, you seem to be thinking along the lines of Calvin in regard to the debate of Calvinism versus Arminianism. I haven't read this completely, but it appears to be similar to what I had heard when I attended a General Conference Baptist church back in 2007, http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html so this would give you an idea of the theological debate, although you've probably read a fair bit here on PPR back a couple years ago too.

This is where I think the mistake is being made, predestiny isn't about God picking names at random and then those who are chosen having the option to be as libertine as they want.

The point is really this - we don't and can't choose who we are. We think we choose our identities, we think we pick our own choices, I don't believe that we do. We stand proud of our output when we're able to make better and better decisions through life but, the input is not of our making, the processing is not of our making, there's never a time in our lives where we literally start without history or instruction - even before we're born we have our genes doing the job. Good and evil people seem to come, as far as I can see it, of neurological circumstance; yes things definitely change in people's lives, people can change their ethics based on what they're able to comprehend, but even external influences themselves, everything from deciding what you'll have for breakfast to the exact breeze or atmospheric pressure that allows someone to roll lucky sevens in craps - you can replay the same moment over and over again, its perfectly the same, just as the same person with the same mood/chemical state with the same information and picturesque identical environment down to the atomic level, will make the same decison.

Because of that I have a tendency to think that everything out there, both good information and bad, both consistencies and inconsistencies, have been placed by God as linchpins, things meant to either have desired effects or mitigate tertiary consequences of others, in order to lead reality and the human condition in a particular direction - of his choosing. I think of it as a giant/magnificent Heron play, just at a scale that Heron could never have comprehended.

What does make everything very interesting, in reading Charles Capps a bit, he hit a home run in my opinion on the notion that I think really summed something up in terms of God and the basis of how we're built in his image - that matter responds to the verbal, that the basis of our creative ability is verbal. A lot of these things I'm still trying to sort out, I am of course praying daily for guidance, but my biggest question for the Lord - as who I am, with the specific gifts and personality traits that I've been given - what does he want me to do? I have a motivational structure, I've learned the hard way that I can't necessarily leave my motivational structure and stick with something for long, so, to be a solid Christian the way I'd like to be it takes understanding the how, why, having my mind instinctively flow in the right directions. Supposedly the law was given to Moses to prove to us that we have a sinful nature and crave what we're told not to do, I'd debate that with myself the trouble seems to be much less that than say fully understanding the spirit of it, the substance behind the form. Form-based Christianity may do well for some, I have trouble just taking the form for what it is and not trying to logically connect the dots - I think I always will and I think I'll always be striving for a better understanding of what everything means, contextually.

At the same time though I think of salvation/perdition in two ways: 1) I would prefer to think that God knows us personally well enough to make a decision based on our hearts 2) the incentive to go to heaven, if God did not judge justly, somewhat evaporates if one finds out that their being their best self wasn't good enough - at that point accepting fate almost becomes a matter of principle. I would much rather believe that the spiritual world and spiritual reality holds far better things for us than this world does, but, if God lets say were very fickle and antipathic - its a rather dystopian picture. Antipathy of course doesn't mix with a being sending his son to die for our sins and take the cup of his wrath either, so, again, I'm looking at more quandries to sort through there as well.

What is most amusing is the concept that a person that behaves responsibly and with consideration for all others because he or she believes that is what makes a good society is totally condemned because the motive is made with logic and understanding and the powers of an excellent mind. If it is not done as a rote procedure out of fear or love of God it has no value whatsoever and the use or lack of intellect is irrelevant. One is not permitted to examine God's motives or, in all probability, wonder about them. A good Christian is an organic wind-up toy programed by God that has the possibility of malfunctioning but that means it must be tortured forever for that malfunction. And this is accepted as a sane concept.

There is nothing inherently wrong with decisions made based on logic and understanding, and certainly nothing wrong with excellent minds. I think that God is a logical being and built logic into everything He created. Whether one has logic or an excellent mind on his side is irrelevant.

In a way, all motives can be said to be selfish motives. For example, the act of placing faith in Christ for one Christian might initially be for his or her "fire insurance." It's being prepared against the afterlife, which has no concern for others. But a non-believer might say that he or she is motivated by concern for others. There is nothing "wrong" with that because we all, for the most part, have some kind of innate or learned sense of duty to do what is right. It's just that an unbeliever can only say that the motives are his or her own and that's pretty much the end of the story. You can SAY you have nothing to gain or that you aren't asking for any reward, but what you HAVE done is satisfied some kind of inward ideal. Beyond that, you aren't really participating in any kind of greater plan. We might as well all grow old and become curmudgeons because point of all our effort amounts really to nothing.

Incidentally, in my reading I've made it through the Proverbs and am working through Ecclesiastes. So if you detect a somewhat negative tone in my last paragraph, it might be due to that influence!

The opposite, acting in accordance with God-given motives doesn't mean you lose the selfish aspect of your motivations. It simply means that those good things you do are part of a willing heart that shares in God's greater plan. Because we love God, we also love people. John 3:16 starts out "God so loved the world..." I think if God loves the world, then certainly He cares about what is good "for society." So why SHOULDN'T we try to make society better? Why SHOULDN'T we want to be good people? Obviously we have a desire to be good and do good. The difference for the Christian is that the willing desire to do good is a vision that is shared with God. To do good otherwise really serves no purpose in the final accounting. For the unbeliever, there is no amount of good that is "good enough." That goes for ALL religions. This is not meant as an attack, but something I find fascinating about Islam is that only the top Moslems who have been good are even going to make it into the eternity club. If God is truly so impersonal, how are you ever going to know? I mean, if you have all these other people in line who, no matter how hard you try, you can't "out-good" them, then why bother even trying? The beauty of Christian morality (when it's actually practiced) is that it doesn't assume that any amount of good CAN get you into Heaven ("For all have sinned..."). Faith is the key that unlocks the door. Doing good deeds and being a caring individual is simply acknowledgment of what God's been telling you all along, something we all know on some level whether we are believers or not.

It makes me sad, Sand, that the only part of what I wrote before is that somehow being a good person is a BAD thing. And it is not true that one is not permitted to examine God's motives or wonder about them. Christians wonder about God's motives all the time and individually have varying degrees of understanding or ability to understand. I take comfort in trusting that God Himself knows what He's doing, and I've been relatively safe in my life so far. I have no idea what you mean that a good Christian must be tortured forever for a malfunction. You'll have to be more clear on what you mean by that. All believers are given the promise of comfort in the afterlife. One who merely "loses his mind" from dementia of old age or illness can't rightfully be held accountable. For a Biblical example, look at Job. He never sinned by taking the advice of those who said "curse God and die." Pleading with God to ease his suffering is completely acceptable. Complaining to God and expressing his feelings of abandonment are likewise perfectly acceptable considering the circumstances.

Hold ON!! ! You think the Methodists are predestination????????????

Look, that might be one sect based upon a friend of John Wesley, but Methodists tend to have a VERY STRONG Arminian tradition, even having some early open-theists among their number.

Actually, a solid number of Calvinists exist, and a lot are open about this. Calvinism has been well-noted for having a recent resurgence with tons of Calvinists pouring forward, so your comment on "tradition for tradition's sake" seems ignorant to me. I can even grant links on the resurgence, as this is recognized both in religious circles and even non-religious circles.


Calvinism does make some sense, and the early Reformers were big into God's choice, as noted from John Calvin himself, and Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will".

Now, you are right, the hat view makes no sense. However, I don't think that addresses Techstepgenr8tion's problem. Even further, Calvinism is a theology about the meanings of scripture, and as such it also has a good number of Old Testament foundations, and other things. Also, given that Paul wrote about half of NT scripture "just Paul" isn't a good rebuttal anyway.


And here you are blundering into a major exegetical issue between Arminians and Calvinists. The issue is that Calvinists believe that while God offers to all, only the elect CAN accept. You have to recognize that Calvinism is a theology about how people can be saved in the first place, and the Calvinist says that only those God chooses will ever be able to fully desire God to the necessary extent to begin salvific effort(as in only they can select God above their own sin), and this ability is granted by God himself. Calvinists reject Arminian synergism in which God comes to man to offer him salvation, and then man can accept God's offer or reject it.


Now, you are just ignorant of Calvinist theology. Calvinists believe that in order to really keep the faith, you have to be chosen. They hold that the good works and solid faith needed to be saved are God-granted gifts resulting from influence by the Holy Spirit. So, the "unrepentant sinner being unjustly saved" and the "faithful man not on the list" aren't actual issues within Calvinist theology. They're strawmen created by a person who doesn't know anything about the theology.


God, seeing that nobody could have sufficient faith on their own, came down to save the few that he chooses. And so, the Calvinist rebuttal is simple:
Why are you saying that it is wrong that some people get to go to heaven? Would you prefer that God had all of the sinners, every single person on this earth, burn forever?


Ahem, strawman, Calvinism says that being saved will include being brought to faith by the Holy Spirit. They hold that salvation includes faith, and that faith causes good works.


Neither does Calvinism for that matter.


Ok, I don't think that Calvinists reject anything you've just said.


And Calvinists say "nobody will come to believe due to their spiritual depravity, unless God selects them to believe".


Well, even under Arminianism, people are generally considered to only have a choice if God offers it, not independently.

AngelRho, most theologians are not open theists, and open theism is the only theology that upholds "all the possibilities". Standard Arminianism says that God knows everything that will happen. Molinism says that God knows everything that will happen. Open theism says "possibilities" and frankly, there is an ongoing scriptural debate surrounding Open theism's claims like that, mostly about what OT scriptures mean on the matter, as well as a few NT scriptures.

In any case though, AngelRho, learn theology rather than spouting out nonsense about positions you've never actually studied.

You go on thinking that AG. I don't care one iota what Calvin says. I care about what the Bible says. I don't need some dead European to tell me how to think. God is alive and well.

I am glad that you are so intellectually deep.

This is what I really hate about free will pop Christianity. The raw and wilful ignorance of it all.

To an extent, having knowledge of what ancient, medieval, and reformation theologian thought is beneficial, however it boils down to being just another form of Rabbinicism. What techstepgener8tion is doing is what I consider ideal: studying for oneself. The thoughts of past scholars can be useful if used correctly, but not to be used as a source of blind memorization though.

Yet must of the faithful in even the most fundamentalist sects of Christianity (as AngelRho elegantly demonstrates by his prescence) are some sort of metaphysical libertarian. A lot of polemics against atheistic naturalism depedent on its deterministic quality obscuring free will.

So this just goes to show how peripheral the influence of most theologians really is on the flock.