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Vexcalibur
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26 Jul 2010, 3:48 pm

Hey, hey, I've been wondering about it. It could be a great way to pass your genes to a new generation, if you are not really the kind to get a stable couple (I am definitely not) and I do want children. It would also be very "interesting".

I think that progress in that regard will happen whether people agree or not. Maybe even in 20 years cloning yourself will not be more expensive than buying a house, and it will not be riskier than artificial insemination . It will allow people that cannot procreate a chance to have children with their own genes. I think that in 20 years I will be slightly older than the parenting average but not really the worst case ever and I met normal people who grew up with such old parents. It will be a hot religious subject, but so are abortion and artificial insemination, yet people do those every day.

I do not believe that cloning will create or duplicate souls - assuming they exist - Identical twins have the same DNA but they have different personalities. So in fact, getting yourself a clone will be similar to having a kid.

Anyway, so what do you think? If those predictions go true. Would you want to get a clone? Would you accept a member of your family's clone if (s)he decides to do it? Would you be tolerant towards those clone children that will share class with your kids?


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AngelRho
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26 Jul 2010, 4:04 pm

If I could get a clone of my wife, that would be pretty hawt.

I for one actually don't really want to see reproductive cloning happen, though. It's not that there is something inherently wrong with cloning. There IS such a thing as "natural" cloning in the case of identical twins. So we know it's POSSIBLE to clone human beings, though whether it's RIGHT is another question.

As a means of creating progeny, I'm perfectly cool with cloning.

I think it gets messed up when you start talking about harvesting organs and things like that. If you want a "later-born twin," fine. But killing another human being is a whole other matter, and I'm afraid human cloning would more raise the question of "humans as property" rather than solving many problems.



Vexcalibur
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26 Jul 2010, 4:08 pm

AngelRho wrote:
If I could get a clone of my wife, that would be pretty hawt.

hmnnn, note that most likely you'll receive a baby version of your wife, possibly not that hawt :|

I think cloning for organ harvesting is unlikely to happen . It sounds like it would be expensive and too long term in comparison to the alternatives that there could be in the synthetically-made organs industry.


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Orwell
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26 Jul 2010, 4:39 pm

Cloning as a viable method of reproducing yourself may still be a century away. We have not yet resolved all of the technical issues involved, and are as yet unable to make a stable clone from an adult mammal. Oh sure, we made Dolly the sheep, but she was already old when she was born. Too many health problems resulted because the organism's cellular/genetic age was higher than its chronological age. We have no idea what that would do to the development of the human brain, and at this point it is way too risky to even attempt, from both a medical and an ethical standpoint. We have to wait for a lot more to happen in molecular genetics, particularly a much more nuanced understanding of telomere function.

AngelRho: cloning for organ harvesting isn't going to happen. It is grossly inefficient. Stem cell research, if allowed to develop, will provide us with custom-grown organs in isolation. And the law would never allow that to happen anyways.


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Jacoby
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26 Jul 2010, 4:50 pm

Naw, I think our current means of reproduction work well enough.



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26 Jul 2010, 5:08 pm

I don't see the point of cloning, or the problems, really.



richardbenson
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26 Jul 2010, 6:09 pm

i already have a pretend brother


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Wombat
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26 Jul 2010, 8:39 pm

If I have a clone can I chop him up and use him for spare parts?



Vexcalibur
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26 Jul 2010, 8:43 pm

Orwell wrote:
Cloning as a viable method of reproducing yourself may still be a century away. We have not yet resolved all of the technical issues involved, and are as yet unable to make a stable clone from an adult mammal. Oh sure, we made Dolly the sheep, but she was already old when she was born. Too many health problems resulted because the organism's cellular/genetic age was higher than its chronological age. We have no idea what that would do to the development of the human brain, and at this point it is way too risky to even attempt, from both a medical and an ethical standpoint. We have to wait for a lot more to happen in molecular genetics, particularly a much more nuanced understanding of telomere function.

AngelRho: cloning for organ harvesting isn't going to happen. It is grossly inefficient. Stem cell research, if allowed to develop, will provide us with custom-grown organs in isolation. And the law would never allow that to happen anyways.
Yes, it is hard, but I don't think it is that far away, a lot of things happen in 20 years and I think we will probably see cloning before taking a man to mars. 50 years would be my most pesimistic prediction whereas 15 my most optimistic. I think 20 years may be more likely than what it seems right now. Degradation is a horrible problem but it sounds like the kind of issue that is only one discovery away from getting fixed - instead of requiring gradual improvement a sudden leap may happen.

Dolly has been old news as well, I think research keeps going.

Consider this thread more of a what if thread.


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Orwell
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26 Jul 2010, 9:21 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Degradation is a horrible problem but it sounds like the kind of issue that is only one discovery away from getting fixed - instead of requiring gradual improvement a sudden leap may happen.

Molecular genetics is a lot more complicated than almost anyone realizes, though. We may fix the telomere issue only to discover that we have created a dozen new problems, or to find yet another roadblock in our way. I'm pessimistic about the prospects of a "great leap forward." I think it is likely we will get there someday, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Perhaps not even in my lifetime.

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Dolly has been old news as well, I think research keeps going.

Yes, but has there been significant advancement in mammalian cloning techniques since then?

Quote:
Consider this thread more of a what if thread.

OK then. If it were cheap enough, maybe I would consider it. My decision would also have to depend somewhat on the legal considerations that would develop around human cloning—exactly what requirements and rights are established by the state will make a huge impact on how good an idea cloning oneself would be.


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26 Jul 2010, 9:22 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
I do not believe that cloning will create or duplicate souls - assuming they exist - Identical twins have the same DNA but they have different personalities. So in fact, getting yourself a clone will be similar to having a kid.


Actually there have been some fascinating studies on identical twins who have been adopted into different families.
In many cases the similarities have been uncanny. They have chosen similar careers, had the same taste in clothes and have even married women with the same name.,

Perhaps the most spectacular case was a couple in Germany who had twin boys. They divorced and each kept one baby.
The father moved to New York and raised his son as an orthodox Jew.
The mother married a member of the Nazi party and that son was raised as a Nazi and joined the Hitler Youth.

Even then they had very similar personalities but when they finally met at the age of 40 or so they didn't like each other.



Vexcalibur
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26 Jul 2010, 10:07 pm

Orwell wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Degradation is a horrible problem but it sounds like the kind of issue that is only one discovery away from getting fixed - instead of requiring gradual improvement a sudden leap may happen.

Molecular genetics is a lot more complicated than almost anyone realizes, though. We may fix the telomere issue only to discover that we have created a dozen new problems, or to find yet another roadblock in our way. I'm pessimistic about the prospects of a "great leap forward." I think it is likely we will get there someday, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Perhaps not even in my lifetime.

Sure, but I still think 100 years is an overly pessimistic estimate. Hey, when they first announced it it didn't seem like they would complete the genome in just ... what? 6 years? Yet they did... As complicated as molecular genetics are, 100 years of work on it are 100 years of work, plus computers and cybernetics are bounded to become more sophisticated as well which will improve the progress as well.


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26 Jul 2010, 10:10 pm

Orwell wrote:
Cloning as a viable method of reproducing yourself may still be a century away. We have not yet resolved all of the technical issues involved, and are as yet unable to make a stable clone from an adult mammal. Oh sure, we made Dolly the sheep, but she was already old when she was born. Too many health problems resulted because the organism's cellular/genetic age was higher than its chronological age. We have no idea what that would do to the development of the human brain, and at this point it is way too risky to even attempt, from both a medical and an ethical standpoint. We have to wait for a lot more to happen in molecular genetics, particularly a much more nuanced understanding of telomere function.

AngelRho: cloning for organ harvesting isn't going to happen. It is grossly inefficient. Stem cell research, if allowed to develop, will provide us with custom-grown organs in isolation. And the law would never allow that to happen anyways.


So if you get a clone, get it young.


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Orwell
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26 Jul 2010, 10:56 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Sure, but I still think 100 years is an overly pessimistic estimate. Hey, when they first announced it it didn't seem like they would complete the genome in just ... what? 6 years? Yet they did... As complicated as molecular genetics are, 100 years of work on it are 100 years of work, plus computers and cybernetics are bounded to become more sophisticated as well which will improve the progress as well.

Well, 100 years to get it reliable and have basically all the problems worked out. I could be wrong, but combine the strong political/religious opposition to cloning with the actual scientific difficulties involved and I don't predict research in the field to move forward as quickly as you might expect.


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26 Jul 2010, 11:03 pm

No. I'm pretty sure his lack of a job would lead him to eventually becoming a pyromaniac or something to that effect.



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27 Jul 2010, 9:03 am

No, I would not get a clone.

I think the temptation to raise her as a "mini-me" would be too great to overcome. Parents (and I am one) have a hard enough time raising their genetically unique children as unique and not as a "do-over" for their own childhoods. If somebody looked exactly like I did as a child and had the same genetic makeup, I don't think I'm personally strong enough to treat her as a unique individual who may nevertheless be very different from me.

On a larger scale, I don't think it would be good for us as a species if asexual reproduction became dominant. Sexual reproduction has flourished because it allows genes to be constantly re-shuffled. For complex organisms, this is necessary. Admittedly, there would be 6 billion genetically unique templates and that seems like enough. But even so, I think it's safer to stick with the perma-shuffle that sexual reproduction gives us.