Do Christains regret things like the witch burnings?

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GreySun369
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03 Nov 2010, 7:22 pm

The main reason I've become strongly against religion is because of things like the witch burnings. The idea that Christains who claim to be such a holy and loving religion have taken innocent people and sadistically tortured them into confessing to the practice of Satan Worship (something that never even really existed untill recently) and then burned them at the stake before hundreds of viewers like some sort of entertaining show.

Now I'm not trying to make this topic an attack on Christains, but one thing I always think about when I'm reminded of these things is: Do the Christains even regret this kind of stuff? Does the thought ever cross their mind that they caused a lot of unforgivable suffering for people who never even intended to hurt them like they think? Do they ever even think about the fact that they broke their own rule of "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" by torturing and killing their fellow humans? How can that rule have any meaning if they continue to defy it constantly throughout history? Furthermore if they are so loving and forgiving and truely believe the "witches" they killed were evil, how could they send their own fellow humans to a place like hell that is filled with neverending suffering instead of trying to help them to get better and go to their heaven? Not to mention that they didn't give these people the mercy of a peaceful execution with no suffering involved. They made sure they suffered before death and then go to a place filled with eternal suffering.

It's the things like that which upset me the most and makes me so cynical about the world. But if there's even a chance that Christains actually regretted doing things like that, then maybe I could forgive them just a little bit. Sorry if this topic sounds overly-dramatic, but it's just one of the things that bother me... :(



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03 Nov 2010, 7:30 pm

It has crossed my mind briefly before, but not like I personally feel guilty over it. It happened in the past everyone from that era is long dead unless you can find an immortal like in Highlander none of the perpetrators or victims are alive to feel angry towards or feel bad for. I look at it as a piece of history to learn from and not to let happen again.


The thing I'm more upset about is the situation with the Catholic Church, quite frankly the pedophiles that are in the clergy need to be castrated.

However, I don't feel particularly guilty about that because I'm not a Catholic, there are multiple subsets of Christianity from the original split started by Martin Luther.



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03 Nov 2010, 7:31 pm

I cannot regret that which I did not do.


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03 Nov 2010, 7:33 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
However, I don't feel particularly guilty about that because I'm not a Catholic, there are multiple subsets of Christianity from the original split started by Martin Luther.

Original split came several centuries before Luther, when Catholics and Orthodox went their separate ways. And we all know that Russian Orthodoxy is the one true form of Christianity, certainly above those evil Latins.


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mgran
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03 Nov 2010, 7:33 pm

Well, I'm a Christian, and I deeply regret that such terrible things happen. I regret the Crusades, and I'm horrified by the thought that Christians surrounded Jewish people in Jerusalem, and burned them, in their synagogues, down to the ground. In my own country, Ireland, Cromwell burned the women and children of Drogheda in their village church, and I've lived in a town where protestants were burned by the Catholics for being of the wrong faith.

All institutional religion is prone to corruption and decay. That's why I'm the kind of Christian who believes in Jesus... but not the worldly church.

Hope that helps.



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03 Nov 2010, 7:45 pm

GreySun369 wrote:
The main reason I've become strongly against religion is because of things like the witch burnings. The idea that Christains who claim to be such a holy and loving religion have taken innocent people and sadistically tortured them into confessing to the practice of Satan Worship (something that never even really existed untill recently) and then burned them at the stake before hundreds of viewers like some sort of entertaining show.

Now I'm not trying to make this topic an attack on Christains, but one thing I always think about when I'm reminded of these things is: Do the Christains even regret this kind of stuff? Does the thought ever cross their mind that they caused a lot of unforgivable suffering for people who never even intended to hurt them like they think? Do they ever even think about the fact that they broke their own rule of "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" by torturing and killing their fellow humans? How can that rule have any meaning if they continue to defy it constantly throughout history? Furthermore if they are so loving and forgiving and truely believe the "witches" they killed were evil, how could they send their own fellow humans to a place like hell that is filled with neverending suffering instead of trying to help them to get better and go to their heaven? Not to mention that they didn't give these people the mercy of a peaceful execution with no suffering involved. They made sure they suffered before death and then go to a place filled with eternal suffering.

It's the things like that which upset me the most and makes me so cynical about the world. But if there's even a chance that Christains actually regretted doing things like that, then maybe I could forgive them just a little bit. Sorry if this topic sounds overly-dramatic, but it's just one of the things that bother me... :(


To answer your question from a personal standpoint, as a non-churchgoing, non-affiliated, Christian of sorts: I do not feel guilty that such events took place, because I did not participate in them--but I do highly regret that they occured. But I only speak for myself, and I am a bit of a pariah among organized christians.


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pgd
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03 Nov 2010, 7:49 pm

Do Christians regret things like the witch burnings, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and burning heretics at the stake?

Simplest answer: From what I can see, the Christian hierarachy (the Christian politicians) doesn't at all. The extremist Christian politicians would do it all again tomorrow to preserve their non-profit religious power if they could get away with it.

The formula some Christian politicians have used is: Convert or die - no questions allowed. It's not about the Bible or God or Jesus Christ - it's only about religious political power (aka the ability to gather and control the collection plate money).

There can be a large difference between the Christian hierarchy (licensed men and women of the cloth) and the persons renting the pews in churches. The pew renters can find witch burnings distasteful but the godless Christian hierarachy does not since dead heretics mean unlimited freedom for the Christian hierarchy to do what they want, not what the Bible says or what God or Jesus have said. It's all about godless, secular power and money at the very highest levels of the churches, not about God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, Moses, the 10 Commandments, or the Bible at all (simplified)(my view).



Last edited by pgd on 03 Nov 2010, 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

druidsbird
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03 Nov 2010, 7:53 pm

pgd wrote:
Do Christians regret things like the witch burnings, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and burning heretics at the stake?

Simplest answer: From what I can see, the Christian hierarachy (the Christian politicians) doesn't at all. The extremist Christian politicians would do it all again tomorrow to preserve their non-profit religious power if they could get away with it.

The formula some Christian politicians have used is: Convert or die - no questions allowed. It's not about the Bible or God or Jesus Christ - it's only about religious political power (aka the ability to gather and control the collection plate money).

There can be a large difference between the Christian hierarchy (licensed men and women of the cloth) and the persons renting the pews in churches. The pew renters can find witch burnings distasteful but the godless Christian hierarachy does not since dead heretics mean unlimited freedom for the Christian hierarchy to do what they want, not what the Bible says or what God or Jesus have said. It's all about godless, secular power and money at the very highest levels of the churches, not about God, Moses, or the 10 Commandments (simplified)(my view).


Plus, it doesn't really matter if the hierarchy regret it or not, because even if they said they did, nobody would believe them. Lol. :)


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03 Nov 2010, 7:55 pm

GreySun369 wrote:
The main reason I've become strongly against religion is because of things like the witch burnings.

The term "religion" serves as a convenient and even an accurate handle there, but the real problem is simply people and not "religion". In other words: Turning completely away from the tub forever just because a bunch of babies got it dirty (and even more than once) just does not make good sense.

GreySun369 wrote:
The idea that Christains who claim to be such a holy and loving religion have taken innocent people and sadistically tortured them ...

People's mere claims never actually make them any different than whatever they actually are, or are not.

GreySun369 wrote:
... the practice of Satan Worship (something that never even really existed untill recently) ...

Maybe not in modern terms or with all the specific practices most common today, but "Satan Worship" has been around for a very long time.

GreySun369 wrote:
Do the Christains even regret this kind of stuff?

I suspect many regret being even name-only associated with it, but I also suspect they typically know they are not the guilty parties.

GreySun369 wrote:
Do they ever even think about the fact that they broke their own rule of "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" by torturing and killing their fellow humans?

The torture part of that would certainly not be appropriate, but I would personally hope to be properly punished for any actual wrong I *had* committed ... and that would include capital punishment, if appropriate. In other words: "Do unto others as ..." does not automatically preclude wanting justice for the sake of others as well as for one's own self.

GreySun369 wrote:
Furthermore if they are so loving and forgiving and truely believe the "witches" they killed were evil, how could they send their own fellow humans to a place like hell ...

Scripture tells what to do with people who commit crimes, but what happens beyond this life is not something we human beings control.

GreySun369 wrote:
... instead of trying to help them to get better and go to their heaven?

I am not one for proffering death-bed confessions/conversions, but I believe many Christians actually do suggest that kind of consideration prior to pulling the switch or cord or whatever.

GreySun369 wrote:
It's the things like that which upset me the most and makes me so cynical about the world.

That is good, but again: Turning completely away from the tub forever just because a bunch of babies got it dirty (and even more than once) just does not make good sense.

GreySun369 wrote:
But if there's even a chance that Christains actually regretted doing things like that ...

If we ever see them anywhere in the afterlife, we can ask.


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03 Nov 2010, 7:58 pm

Orwell wrote:
I cannot regret that which I did not do.


This. :)



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03 Nov 2010, 8:00 pm

leejosepho wrote:
GreySun369 wrote:
The main reason I've become strongly against religion is because of things like the witch burnings.

The term "religion" serves as a convenient and even an accurate handle there, but the real problem is simply people and not "religion". In other words: Turning completely away from the tub forever just because a bunch of babies got it dirty (and even more than once) just does not make good sense.

GreySun369 wrote:
The idea that Christains who claim to be such a holy and loving religion have taken innocent people and sadistically tortured them ...

People's mere claims never actually make them any different than whatever they actually are, or are not.

GreySun369 wrote:
... the practice of Satan Worship (something that never even really existed untill recently) ...

Maybe not in modern terms or with all the specific practices most common today, but "Satan Worship" has been around for a very long time.

GreySun369 wrote:
Do the Christains even regret this kind of stuff?

I suspect many regret being even name-only associated with it, but I also suspect they typically know they are not the guilty parties.

GreySun369 wrote:
Do they ever even think about the fact that they broke their own rule of "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" by torturing and killing their fellow humans?

The torture part of that would certainly not be appropriate, but I would personally hope to be properly punished for any actual wrong I *had* committed ... and that would include capital punishment, if appropriate. In other words: "Do unto others as ..." does not automatically preclude wanting justice for the sake of others as well as for one's own self.

GreySun369 wrote:
Furthermore if they are so loving and forgiving and truely believe the "witches" they killed were evil, how could they send their own fellow humans to a place like hell ...

Scripture tells what to do with people who commit crimes, but what happens beyond this life is not something we human beings control.

GreySun369 wrote:
... instead of trying to help them to get better and go to their heaven?

I am not one for proffering death-bed confessions/conversions, but I believe many Christians actually do suggest that kind of consideration prior to pulling the switch or cord or whatever.

GreySun369 wrote:
It's the things like that which upset me the most and makes me so cynical about the world.

That is good, but again: Turning completely away from the tub forever just because a bunch of babies got it dirty (and even more than once) just does not make good sense.

GreySun369 wrote:
But if there's even a chance that Christains actually regretted doing things like that ...

If we ever see them anywhere in the afterlife, we can ask.


OT: leejosepho, I admire your thoughtful point-by-point responses that you seem to effortlessly give to difficult questions.


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03 Nov 2010, 8:09 pm

If a Christian regrets these things, it is their prerogative to do so. Those responsible and the victims are long since gone. I see no reason to hold such ancient atrocities against modern Christians.

Most one might get is a face-value apology from the pope.


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03 Nov 2010, 9:39 pm

leejosepho wrote:
GreySun369 wrote:
The main reason I've become strongly against religion is because of things like the witch burnings.

The term "religion" serves as a convenient and even an accurate handle there, but the real problem is simply people and not "religion". In other words: Turning completely away from the tub forever just because a bunch of babies got it dirty (and even more than once) just does not make good sense.

GreySun369 wrote:
The idea that Christains who claim to be such a holy and loving religion have taken innocent people and sadistically tortured them ...

People's mere claims never actually make them any different than whatever they actually are, or are not.

GreySun369 wrote:
... the practice of Satan Worship (something that never even really existed untill recently) ...

Maybe not in modern terms or with all the specific practices most common today, but "Satan Worship" has been around for a very long time.

GreySun369 wrote:
Do the Christains even regret this kind of stuff?

I suspect many regret being even name-only associated with it, but I also suspect they typically know they are not the guilty parties.

GreySun369 wrote:
Do they ever even think about the fact that they broke their own rule of "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" by torturing and killing their fellow humans?

The torture part of that would certainly not be appropriate, but I would personally hope to be properly punished for any actual wrong I *had* committed ... and that would include capital punishment, if appropriate. In other words: "Do unto others as ..." does not automatically preclude wanting justice for the sake of others as well as for one's own self.

GreySun369 wrote:
Furthermore if they are so loving and forgiving and truely believe the "witches" they killed were evil, how could they send their own fellow humans to a place like hell ...

Scripture tells what to do with people who commit crimes, but what happens beyond this life is not something we human beings control.

GreySun369 wrote:
... instead of trying to help them to get better and go to their heaven?

I am not one for proffering death-bed confessions/conversions, but I believe many Christians actually do suggest that kind of consideration prior to pulling the switch or cord or whatever.

GreySun369 wrote:
It's the things like that which upset me the most and makes me so cynical about the world.

That is good, but again: Turning completely away from the tub forever just because a bunch of babies got it dirty (and even more than once) just does not make good sense.

GreySun369 wrote:
But if there's even a chance that Christains actually regretted doing things like that ...

If we ever see them anywhere in the afterlife, we can ask.


I also really appreciate your logic.


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04 Nov 2010, 4:04 am

I am not guilty about slavery because not only did I never own slaves, nor did any of my ancestors.

I read in a book of witchcraft that a woman of my (unusual) family name was burned as a witch in England several centuries ago.

What happened before I was born has nothing to do with me.



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04 Nov 2010, 6:51 am

Hi Wombat. England hung their witches, and burned their religious dissidents. Witchcraft was considered a civil crime, and was punished by civil law (since the witch was always accused of crime against person or property) whereas heresy was covered by the church, who took the delightful option of burning it's victims. Although a woman of your family name might have been burned, it wouldn't have been for witchcraft per say. If it was before the reformation she might have prayed in English, or had some pages of the Bible, if after the Reformation she could have been a secret Catholic, or suspected as such.

If you're interested, I've done some fairly in depth studies of the executions of alleged "heretics" and "witches". Send me a pm, and I might be able to find out more about your possible ancestor. Also, I'd be interested in the book you read this in... many populist history books fudge the differences between "witches" and "heretics" for ahistorical reasons. However, an excellent and very readable book, written by a practicing witch, is called "The Triumph of the Moon," and gives a very clear and honest account of the growth and popularity of Wicca in modern Britain. Even though I'm a Christian (used to be pagan) I would recommend this book to anyone.



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04 Nov 2010, 7:55 am

Only the Puritans did that, not "Christians" as a whole. Just as the Roman Catholic Church did the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades.

I have no regret for what others did. I frankly don't see how any Christian who's read the Bible could condone what they did.