Elp me out

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I am apolitical, perhaps antipolitical, and ignore for my health so much a possible, and I cannot tell from subject headings.

Politicized people [some of my best friends have been] - are the political postings here as inbred pep rally as the majority religio focussed inputs?

Very curious.

My guess is that you're not from an English speaking country. Am I correct?
I ask this because I dont understand what your are asking. Help ME out.

Neither the political nor the religious threads here are "inbred pep rallies". Both types generally contain major disagreements.

I was actually hoping your use of the word Elp was a reference to the Bronze Age proto-Germanic Elp culture of the Netherlands, northwest Germany, and Denmark. I was hoping I could pour out reams of information about one of the subjects I have an Aspie obsession with.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

you just need an "h"


.


(you can have that one)

Go for it.
Never heard of the "Elp" culture. Have heard of the Proto Celtic "Hallschtadt culture, but not the Elp culture.

Were they before, or after Stone Henge, and Carna (in france)?

I do not know the Elp culture [though I know a very little about the contemporary Kraichgau dialect]. Owever, I ave a hinterest in things archaeological and anything you pour out is quite welcome. In the meantime I will check out what may be in my inhouse resources.

Okay, and thanks!
As I am getting ready to eat, I'll have to keep this briefer than I might have preferred.
The Elp culture was apparently a Bronze Age Proto-Germanic material culture along coastal northwestern Europe - i.e. the modern Netherlands, Northwest Germany, and mainland Denmark. Named for a Dutch village where the first artifacts of this particular complex was discovered, Elp was seemingly derived from the possibly Pre-Indo-European Barbed Beaker culture who had resided in the Rhineland region since the neolithic, and immigrants of the Nordic bronze age, coming out of the north. While the Hilversum culture south in present day Belgium continued to resemble their Bell Beaker ancestors in their cultural and commercial connections to Europe's Atlantic coast and Britain, Elp became culturally tied to the Proto-Germanic Scandinavia.
The people of the Elp culture began building long houses, in which livestock were kept in one end of the building (at least in the winter), while the family resided at the other end. This provided the family with a source of warmth during the cold northern winters, and close proximity to cows milk, which ensured a healthier diet. As well, the Bell Beaker style pottery was replaced by a cruder northern type of pottery. This is indicative of the northern immigrants arriving with a new material culture, which replaced that of Bell Beaker. This process did not occur peacefully, as evidenced by sites such as a mass grave found from that era in (I believe) north Belgium, containing nine skeletons of adults and children, with smashed in skulls. Ethnic cleansing apparently isn't anything new. And yet, from the mixture of physical types in the Elp region - brachycephailic Dinaric and Alpine Bell Beaker people, mixed with the Nordic tall, long headed type northerners, with muscular, broad featured Phalian and Borreby remnants of the older population from the paleolithic thrown in for good measure - there had been plenty of others who had been willing to make love instead of war.
With the occurrence of the Iron Age, the Hilversum culture to the south in Belgium had become submerged in the Halstatt-La Tenne Celtic material culture from central Europe, while there had clearly been much Celtic influence in the Elp region. What emerged in this region could perhaps best be described as Celto-Germanic. It's from this part of Europe that some scholars have placed the theoretical Nordwestblock, where the language type of the population is up to question - Celtic, Germanic, a combination of both, or perhaps even a whole different language no longer in existence. Historically, Julius Caesar reported the tribes in the former Elp and Hilversum cultures in his Gallic Wars - the Sugambri, Ubii, Tencteri, Belgae, Bructeri, Chamavi and others - as Germanic, but bearing strong Celtic influences (minus Denmark by this time). Tacitus in the late 1st century A.D. said these particular Germanic tribes between the Rhine and Weser referred to themselves as Istvaeones, or as Pliny pronounced Escvaeones. Historians and archaeologists often refer to these people as either Rhine-Weser Germans, or by the name given to them by the archaeological sites of Harpstedt-Nienberg. By the waning days of the western Roman empire, many of these tribes had joined together as the Franks, from which much of the populations of present day Germany, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands are derived from.
Sorry if I had diarrhea of the typing fingers - like I said, this is one of my Aspie obsessions.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Okay - it will take me a while to get the timetable straight. For region, Germanic is surely a possibility, but there is the Celtic border and of course we do NOT have recordings. The Celtic we know [a lot of "Gaulish" is UNKNOWN, all we know is it s not homogeneous] is arguably closer to Italic including Latin than to Germanic - but we can't rule out transitional divisions or heavy mixtures.

Germanic as we have it is arguably less linguistically diverse than Celtic - but we can't argue too far from that.

Appreciated. Is Kraichgauer actual ethnicity /ancestry or [like my Dad's ouzo drinking] assumed < interest?

My dad's people had come from the Kraichgau area of present day Baden-Wurttemberg, prior to immigrating to the Black Sea region in Russia in the early 19th century. My dad (who had passed away back in '96) had always told me how our ancestors had considered themselves to be something different from their Swabian neighbors to the south. And in my reading, I discovered he was right - the Kraichgauers in fact were descended from Frankish invaders and colonists in the 6th century. They are still differentiated from the Swabians and Alemannians to the south by their South Franconian dialect.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Ach, ja - Die Schwaben - something else again.. Mind you, the language and political boundaries do not absolutely match.

My mother's Baltrmore Germans moved the opposite direction, probably close to the same time, possibly for similar reasons. Most of them not localized as to origin - exceptions the Ivemeyer from near Osnabruck and thr Garmers out of Munsterland.

There was on line a Kraichgauer vocabulary - not badly done. Have yu seen it? I could not find it searching tonight, but I have a copy I could shoot you if you needed / wanted [I am a language freak].

Sure, if it's not too much trouble. I do not read or speak German (I barely passed high school German with a D), but I think it'd be interesting.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

No problem =- especially because in the meantime I found the link, you can download any time. It is pretty well done as these things go. Here she be:

http://www.marliese-echner-klingmann.de ... -04-26.pdf

Enjoy. Marliese's home area may be a bit different from your Urheimat, and you have to allow for about a century of development - but close enough to give an idea,

Actually, I do recognize this. But thank you, anyway!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Reading the Elp postings to my wife this morning, I realised - the Elp limits are very close to the historic distribution of Frisiam - Nederland, the north German coast, and bits of southern Denmark.

While this does not prove anything nor argue against the Elpings reinventing themselves as [part of?] the Franks, that it continued to be a more or less cohesive enclave site is intriguing.

By the way, I once owned a collection of dialect writings centered on Stuttgart which included mostly Schwabisch-Alemannisch, but hd a couple of pieces in a Fraconian diaect thsat if not Kraichgau is close. They were most enjoyable.

To be sure, we are talking about a prehistoric population, who we know about through archeological evidence. So, just where one historic population begins, and another ends, is iffy at best. And concerning the Frisians; there is a school of thought that the early Frisian population who the Romans encountered in the 1st century may not have been the same as the later population. Originally, the Frisians were led by chiefs bearing Celticized names, and very much may have had more in common with the Rhine-Weser Elp descendants. But by the 3rd century, Frisia became largely depopulated. The later population calling themselves Frisians seem to have had much more in common with the neighboring Saxons, who they may have been a splinter group of. But then again, some writers believe that, despite the fact that Frisia for at least a couple centuries had become depopulated, they may have eventually returned home after living near by, and so represent ethnic continuity. But even so, this may explain a change in language and culture.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer