Just curious about the free will debate

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I have heard about free will and the debate about whether or not it exists, can someone explain it to me, both sides of the debate. I am just curious

I am sure someone can, but I doubt anyone here will since most people seem to have too much invested in one view or the other to risk even acknowledging the other. Nevertheless, I will at least try ...

From Wikipedia:

"Free will is the purported ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints ...
"The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will implies that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may hold implications regarding whether individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought."

Many years ago in the Navy, a server at a chow line asked me how I would like my steak ... but he had only one pan of steaks sitting there. So, I just said "Well done" since that is what those steaks appeared to be ... but then when the next guy in line said "Rare", the server lifted the next steak from that same pan and simply flipped it over onto the guy's tray.

Fixed facts:
1) All the streaks had been cooked on only one side;
2) Everyone was free to choose "rare" or "well-done".

That is far from being a great example, but that might get your mind going on the matter of free will.

Personally, I do not find certain constraints or consequences in conflict with free will. Rather, I freely live and move within them ... or something like that.

All decisions are made under the constraints of the perceptions of consequences. There is no way to get rid of those constraints. I am not speaking of actual consequences. It is the perceptions that matter. Free will is not only an illusion, it is a silly concept.

Then so is moral responsibility. If there is no free will there is no blame.

ruveyn

Yes, but ...

My grandfather went to his grave with "Born to die" on his lips.

Did he choose to think that way or was he destined to do so?

Precisely. If a car gets a flat tire do you blame the car or the tire or the nail in the road? And if the nail is responsible, do you send it to prison or to hell? Blame is a dumb concept. When a human does a terrible thing there is something wrong with the human. But society is too dumb to understand that and it is too ignorant, at the current state of technology, to fix it.

None of the above -- I blame the driver who free-willed himself into that situation.

Considering how nails get into tires I find that answer immensely unaware of reality.

Is it by your own free will you now again turn to attacking someone, or do you truly have no control over that?

Free will and inanimate objects such as nails and tires is not the discussion here. The question is whether the driver ever has any choice in the matter of flat tires.

You seem to be trying to persuade me that people choose to have flat tires.

Once again: Why must you talk about me?! Are you truly incapable of sticking to the subject at hand?

People make choices and choices have consequences.

Are you incapable of understanding the problem?

leejosepho, kudos for a valiant efffort.


I would have gone Tarbaby. Apprectiations to you.

Other people may put nails on the road which end up causing you to have a flat tire. It was their free will that caused them to put the nails on the road, however if they get caught they can also be put up on charges.

leejosepho I thought you analogy was bang on. It neatly illustrated the role that our fallible cognition plays in the perception of free will.

Had that cook been more honest, He would have said "which way do you want your rare stake flipped?" revealing the degree of free will you had in the situation. Your "choice" could never really change the state of your meal.

Of course we all have freedom of action. You could have refused steak at all. But the banality of going hungry for no good reason points out that you had few realistic options available. You had to eat what you were given, which is probably what you told your kids, and probably what you heard from your parents too.

Your story was very funny/maddening. Very "Catch-22". Have you ever read that book?

In another example, perhaps you were traveling somewhere and came across an automotive accident. Presuming no emergency personnel were at the scene I dont think your conscience or sense of decency would allow you to do anything but render what aid you could. In theory you could drive off. From a practical standpoint, your course of action was decided as soon as you perceived the situation.

In the spirit of the topic I wont go so far as to say there is no free will, but time and time again we surrender our moments to the vagaries of life.

The next step is to ask why they put nails on the road. Did they drop them by accident? Then they werent using free will, were they?

Maybe they want people to get flats/have accidents. So you ask: why might they want that?

Maybe they are angry and lashing out. They cant help themselves(no free will).

Maybe someone forced them to(no free will). Lets say its that.

Why would someone force them to put out nails? Just because they are evil? So you ask: why are they evil?

Maybe they are a sociopath and were born that way.(no free will) Lets say its not that, ok?

So you find a reason why that seemingly involves free will, and ask what placed them in that situation, and you'll find another link in the chain of events all the way back to the snake tempting Eve. It was his nature and gods design(no free will).

The man kicks the dog so he bites the cat, to make it kill the rat who stole the food from the man... and so on.