see what religion does?

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You can't be too careful. A few hundred years ago we killed tens of thousands of witches in Europe.

Some places up to a quarter of the entire population.

If Cotton Mathers hadn't executed all those witches in Salem then who knows what might have happened in America?

Except were they really anything?

who were what? Witches? Minions of the devil?

no.

yeah real witches have no power...

go read dan brown

"witches" are just women that religion wanted rid of.

So you take one isolated incident in an uneducated third world country done by members of a single religion and play it up as if this is what all religions do and the only thing they do?

that doesn't seem fair.

Don't pretend like nothing good has ever come from religion because that simply isn't true.

religion descriminates
religion hurts
religion divides
religion kills

ONE incident?

The dark ages (500 years of brutality and stagnation)
The inquisition (convert or we'll torture you)
9/11/01 - how quickly we forget
Salem witch trials
the slave trade
Conflict between Irish Protestants and Catholics
the holocaust during WWII
Matthew Sheppard, et al.

need I continue?

^^^^^^

If you want to account for all kinds of crime. Then blame people. These sorts of debates are a bit repetitive. Someone points out crimes committed by people who are religious, then someone starts listing crimes committed by atheists. Then eventually a strange balance of crimes begins to emerge with each side trying to tag the other with the biggest ones, the holocaust (good to see you already made your position clear on that one ). Then a major fight occurs over every issue only reinforcing any prejudice either side brings to the argument.

MasterJedi, what you do not seem to realize is that the argument you are making appeals only to people who accept the underlying prejudice of your argument. The fact is that you have identified the wrong lowest common denominator for these evils. The only thing that all issues have in common is that they are committed by people. Now replace, all of the the times where you mention religion, with the word people and you will get a much clearer picture.

MasterJedi, I sense much fear in you.

there's a picture out there on teh interweb

I'll post it here so you don't have to go look for it.



No fear at all. I'm completely able to say "I deny the existence of the holy spirit" without fear of going to some make-believe realm of fire and brimstone.

Belief in god or gods can only result in harm to you and the people around you.

THE BIBLE SAYS TO DO THESE THINGS OR THE KORAN COMMANDS IT and the people obey. How can it NOT be a religion issue?

False-o, my friend. One of my ancestors in Salem tossed in jail one of my wife's MALE ancestors on the charge of witchcraft. He died there.

Number 1 Son is working this out.

AND in case you are wondering, evidence is the ACTUAL issue in this case was that one professional in the community wanted to eliminate competition and sent in an accusation.

"Belief in god or gods can only result in harm to you and the people around you.

THE BIBLE SAYS TO DO THESE THINGS OR THE KORAN COMMANDS IT and the people obey. How can it NOT be a religion issue?"

May you never have to live in a religion-free society. I have talked to people who have had that experience.

How can it NOT be an issue of religion? I will not go the route of talking massacres by the godless. You will not here. I will ask you:

WHERE does the Bible tell anybody to start up crusade or pogrom? Where does the Qur'an tell anybody to fly planes into buildings?

Yes, the Israelites were supposed to kill off the Canaanites [and they did a lousy job and were made to regret it]. Who else were they told to kill? Yes, the Christians were told to spread the news. There is little explicit statement on how. Same for Islam, where - I am told - there are some very explicit rules laid down for the where when how of violence.

If a leader - with perhaps a psychic twist - persuades people to go on Crusade, or invade Poland, or fix Cambodia, or shift the Cherokee, or eliminate the Tasmanians - does it matter whether he motivates people with religion, or a political ideology, or greed, or hatred of other which is ALWAYS near the surface, or manifest destiny or the glory of the motherland? To the leader it is a tool. To those who play along, they are motivated by the rhetoric, or by fear of the Gestapo, or by greed or hate. To the ones impacted - the outcome is the same.

It is incredibly shortsighted to see religion as causal in this pattern. It is incredibly blinkered to see that religion - not political ideology or human altruism or love of all mankind - that often motivates people to try to break the cycle.

Sorry. The use of "incredibly" is disingenuous. I have seen it, I totally believe it. For "incredibly" in the above paragraph, please substitute the more precise if less rhetorically correct "stupid and".

you people, when confronted by something that's in your own book, you're like "huh?" Takes someone who knows better than to point this stuff out.

Go ahead a peruse this site

oh, not to mention the fact that all the religious nuts seem to take it upon themselves to interpret the bible for their own needs like, :god wants me to bomb that abortion clinic" or "god hates fags"

Meeciiria diyukh jo haldir.

Tamam.

we never forgave you for that