Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

UKIP throws UK politics "into a marvellous chaos"

Page 1 of 1 [ 14 posts ] 

Previous topic | Next topic

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

24 Apr 2013, 6:16 pm

So sayeth Palestinian terrorist excuse-maker Peter Obore:

Quote:
Ukip has thrown British politics into the most marvellous chaos
  • The UK Independence Party and Nigel Farage are a problem for David Cameron – but he should avoid a lurch to the Right
Every so often, Britain is shaken by a new political force that articulates a sense of frustration at the old structures, or a yearning for something new. Sometimes these movements – like the Labour Party at the start of the 20th century – turn into a momentous presence that permanently transforms the national landscape. More usually they wither and fade.

To begin with, the political establishment almost always ignores these new movements. This is because they articulate heretical thoughts that cannot be countenanced within the framework of mainstream discourse and practice. They are so challenging that it is much easier to pretend they do not exist.

Until very recently, this has been the fate of Ukip. The British media and political class has always found its basic proposition – that Britain should leave Europe – unthinkable. For a long period, Ukip had virtually no airtime on the BBC (which controls some 60 per cent of news coverage), while on its rare appearances it tended to be mocked.


I think he's wrong. I think he's thinking we're going to end up like Pierre Poujade. He's sorely mistaken. We'll keep up the pressure until we get what we want.

Cameron and his party of losers can go to hell.

We are coming.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

24 Apr 2013, 6:37 pm

Tequila wrote:
We'll keep up the pressure until we get what we want.

In that case, I hope you get what you want quickly.



CSBurks
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 766

24 Apr 2013, 6:58 pm

Well...it is fun to watch Tories sh*t themselves.



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

24 Apr 2013, 7:18 pm

CSBurks wrote:
Well...it is fun to watch Tories sh*t themselves.


And Labour. And the Lib Dems. Though neither of them have cottoned on just yet.

We've been around for a while. We'll be around for a while longer yet.



duncvis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,642
Location: The valleys of green and grey

25 Apr 2013, 4:05 am

I think its fair to say the next couple of years will be interesting. :P


_________________
I'm usually smarter than this.

www.last.fm/user/nursethescreams <<my last.fm thingy

FOR THE HORDE!


xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

25 Apr 2013, 10:28 am

The people around Thatcher were often described as Poujadists. That Thatcher had the "shopkeeper's daughter" background made her a perfect Poujadist figure, something that the toff Cameron and his cabinet cannot achieve. As the martyrdom of the petty bourgeoisie is an important part of current political discourse in the Anglo-American west anyway, this is an angle that Cameron lacks when compared with Thatcher. With this void, UKIP can play the Poujadist angle.



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

25 Apr 2013, 10:35 am

xenon13 wrote:
The people around Thatcher were often described as Poujadists. That Thatcher had the "shopkeeper's daughter" background made her a perfect Poujadist figure, something that the toff Cameron and his cabinet cannot achieve. As the martyrdom of the petty bourgeoisie is an important part of current political discourse in the Anglo-American west anyway, this is an angle that Cameron lacks when compared with Thatcher. With this void, UKIP can play the Poujadist angle.


You forget that Poujade himself based his entire economic theory on protectionism - he wanted the small trader to get preferential treatment and be protected in law. He was a vicious anti-Semite, and was close to the National Front and Pétain at the start of World War II. His movement actually died off quite quickly (within several years) because of his tendency to alienate people, including many of the parliamentarians that got elected under his party banner.

Whatever UKIP is, they're not Poujadists. Their success has been growing gradually over many years now.



0_equals_true
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2007
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,038
Location: London

25 Apr 2013, 11:56 am

There is a protectionist element to all nationalist groups undeniably. They are hardly laissez-faire, this doesn't fit with migration policy.

No markets are free anyway.

The question is not protectionism, but what type of protectionism is appropriate.



duncvis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,642
Location: The valleys of green and grey

25 Apr 2013, 12:26 pm

Their growth in popularity coupled with the collapsing libdem support has certainly altered the balance in UK politics of late. The question in my mind is what will happen to the party when they do get the referendum, and we leave the EU? (I hope :P ) They seem to have evolved nicely beyond a single issue party, but europe is their main USP - once this is adequately resolved, where next?

And I agree they aren't Poujadists, their appeal seems much broader and *gasp* some of their positions aren't reactionary. I'll be watching with interest.


_________________
I'm usually smarter than this.

www.last.fm/user/nursethescreams <<my last.fm thingy

FOR THE HORDE!


Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

25 Apr 2013, 2:40 pm

duncvis wrote:
And I agree they aren't Poujadists, their appeal seems much broader and *gasp* some of their positions aren't reactionary.


There is a considerable classical liberal/libertarian wing within the party, a minority of whom are pretty pro-mass immigration.



trollcatman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Dec 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,919

25 Apr 2013, 3:52 pm

I don't know much about UK politics, but I think I remember they changed the way elections work so it's not just about the biggest two parties.
It used to be a race between Labour and the Conservatives with Libdems as a third party. I wonder where UKIP is at this time. Is there a website that publishes polls outside of election time in the UK? Such as this one for the Netherlands:
http://www.ipsos-nederland.nl/content.asp?targetid=621

VVD (right) and PvdA(labour), and PVV as a third party. SP (far left) are also somewhat EU skeptic.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

25 Apr 2013, 4:04 pm

There is more or less constant polling, by the likes of Ipsos, YouGov, and others.

YouGov's polls (though these do not clearly show UKIP numbers): http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cu ... 250413.pdf

UKIP are showing as roughly equal with the Lib Dems right now. http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/
I would imagine that UKIP will fade relative to the Lib Dems as we approach the new general election. UKIP's policies will have to face up to greater scrutiny which will see their credibility collapse, and the Lib Dems should start to get some credit for the immense amounts of good they have done in parliament.



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

25 Apr 2013, 4:45 pm

The LDs are toast. Complete toast. They will take many years to recover from their present low state.

If anything, Labour will get in next time by default.



xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

25 Apr 2013, 7:43 pm

Tequila wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
The people around Thatcher were often described as Poujadists. That Thatcher had the "shopkeeper's daughter" background made her a perfect Poujadist figure, something that the toff Cameron and his cabinet cannot achieve. As the martyrdom of the petty bourgeoisie is an important part of current political discourse in the Anglo-American west anyway, this is an angle that Cameron lacks when compared with Thatcher. With this void, UKIP can play the Poujadist angle.


You forget that Poujade himself based his entire economic theory on protectionism - he wanted the small trader to get preferential treatment and be protected in law. He was a vicious anti-Semite, and was close to the National Front and Pétain at the start of World War II. His movement actually died off quite quickly (within several years) because of his tendency to alienate people, including many of the parliamentarians that got elected under his party banner.

Whatever UKIP is, they're not Poujadists. Their success has been growing gradually over many years now.


Poujadism is petty bourgeoisie populism... that Poujade had these other beliefs does not change the fact that this is what is usually meant by Poujadism. Today, the petty bourgeoisie are at the top of the totem pole when it comes to politicians; the "small businessman" is hero and martyr... all American politicians pay tribute to them as such, including Obama...that type of populism is pervasive. Thatcher played to that and Cameron the toff cannot.