sartresue said...

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This came up in the Strident Atheist thread, but that is getting a bit clogged, so let us sideline this.

You done say:

" This includes religious belief, sexism, racism, and all other isms with fixed premises that internally limit diversity and encourage narrowness of thought."

First off, on fostering uniformity and narrowness of thought, I am totally with you. There is far too much of this on the web, on the tube, in schools and universities, in journalism and politics.

But there is nothing about religious belief that fits it into that list.

Yes, there are some religious organizations and some who proclaim this or that religious belief who have such attitudes. And there have been some heads of religous organizations who are so,

But hey - some literature is aimed at fostering the Green Monkey response, - and some succeeds all too well. But nobody is going to put literature and authors on a list like yours above,

really?

...really?

ok. if you say so. better let everyone who's ever been excommunicated, shunned, or otherwise ostracized from their church for stepping outside the church's "narrowness of thought" know so they can go back.


good thing there is nothing about religious belief that fosters uniformity and narrowness of thought! israel/palestine solved! reproductive rights in america solved! marriage equality solved!

oh wait, that's stupid.

waltur:

better let everyone who's ever been excommunicated, shunned, or otherwise ostracized from their church for stepping outside the church's "narrowness of thought" know so they can go back.

I reiterate:

Yes, there are some religious organizations and some who proclaim this or that religious belief who have such attitudes. And there have been some heads of religous organizations who are so,

Believing in one ore more divine entities is not a problem. Setting up an organizatiion WILL attract in the people who make and enforce rules and uniformity and the little bureaucratic mind and the big my way or the highway mind. And they are the same people who are going to run an atheist communist state and the same people who will run a theocracy and the same people who will run a professional association AND the same people who will control the school board.

Their beliefs and the rulles they go around enforcing are irrelevant - like the orioles in our yard building a nest of blue plastic fibre from old fertilizer bags instead of grass - the mind in question does not care what material it uses.

Another note - "marriage equality"? Interesting phrase. Marriage in this country, any religious component is totally optional, "marriage" has nothing to do with any traditional form of marriage, certainly not Christian marriage. It is a totally government controlled thing like driver's licenses or a business permit - for a fee and a form the govt gives you certain privileges like tax breaks and rules you employer has to comply with.

It does not make you legitimate as a couple or larger group or as a parent. It does not bind you together as a couple or larger group or parent for longer than you feel like it. You NEED a permit to drive or open a store - for marriage - real marriage, being bonded for life to another with whom you form a unit - you do not need the permit at all.

The government - obviously, if you have watched the papers - can and will make the rules it wants, and it will NOT ask the religious and it will NOT ask the irreligious and it for sure will not ask the people.

It MAY ask the media and the ivery tower intelligentsia. Won't necessarily listen.

I am not a believer. I do not attend worship services and I do not order my life on the principles of my religious and cultural identity.

But I am not prepared to see religion, religious belief and religious practice, in general, rubbished on the basis of abuses practiced by one or more religions.

I see the issue as one of tribalism. I, and people like me, fight for resources with you and people like you. In these cirucmstances, people naturally develop an "us" and "them" mentality.

Religion is only one of the ways we have distinguished the people we like from the people we hate. We derive it by nationality (e.g. French vs. Germans). We derive it by language (e.g. Québec vs. Rest of Canada and Walloon vs. Flemish in Belgium). We derive it by race.

If religion disappeared tomorrow, would we be more harmonious? I suggest not. Rather, I believe that we will always find ways of separating our own tribes from other tribes. Until we embrace diversity as a strength rather than a threat, tribalism will always be our collective foe.

In general well said and I see no reason to pick at trivial differences in emphasis.

In saying " I, and people like me, fight for resources with you and people like you. In these cirucmstances, people naturally develop an "us" and "them" mentality. " I take it you are not specifying precisely me and thee.

But the process of declaring one another "The Other" and attacking lest they attack is universal.