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TheKing
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06 Feb 2011, 8:06 pm

By its definition War cannot be Holy so a Holy War is the biggest contradiction of all

any thought?


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leejosepho
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06 Feb 2011, 8:38 pm

I believe "holy" can simply mean "set apart", and that could apply here. However, that does *not* mean such "wars" were actually right or just.


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06 Feb 2011, 8:41 pm

When you tell the people that if they die in battle they will go to heaven. Every morning a percentage of the "combatants" be it on a patrol or in an ambush prey to there respective god.

God has a history of wiping people of the face of the earth in that region.

If you want a specific example of Christianity and War mixing. I refer you to "Onward Christian Soldiers".


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TheKing
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06 Feb 2011, 8:44 pm

on wikipedia Holy War redirected me to religious war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war


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Philologos
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07 Feb 2011, 1:07 am

TheKing wrote:
By its definition War cannot be Holy so a Holy War is the biggest contradiction of all

any thought?


Sorry. MAYBE by your definition of war and your definition of holy - but a very leetle bit research will show that "holy war" comes nowhere near the incongruity wrongly - I do not say falsely, but certainly thoughtlessly - alleged by Chomsky for "colorless green ideas sleep furiously"

When you got it holy cows and holy grails and Holy Mother Russia and holiday and all ....

Of course you could make the point that "Holy War" is a mistranslation of Jihad. But since the meaning range includes the concept of divinely mandated conflict, "Holy War" is a better translation than most alternatives.

Note that conflicts that can properly be called "Holy War" are rare. You have to cut out those fights that are just "God is on our side and wioll protect us when we rise against the oppressor". And cases where the person who spied on the goings on in the sanctuary gets torn to shreds. To qualify as a holy war you need a conflict where the offense is not pursuing national interest nor fighting for territorial or economic advantages, and where the leaders of the movement convince others and may themselves be convinced that the conflict is mandated by a divine entity.

Of course, if your language and your religious beliefs make the "Holy War" combination really uncomfortable, you can use Jihad, which most evden semi-media conscious people around the world now understand.

We could talk about whether for example the first Crusade and the English Civil War should be counted as Jihad / Holy War. While religious issues were certainly among the motivating factors, it is not clear to me that they were at Holy War levels primary - and I am prettu sure at least a couple Crusades need to be excluded.



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07 Feb 2011, 4:13 pm

A war in the name of Ares or another 'god of war' would seem to me to be a 'logical' holy war


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AngelRho
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07 Feb 2011, 4:53 pm

Well, all I know is in the Bible, war served two purposes: #1 restoring the Holy Land to the Israelites. #2 the medium through which God brought forth His divine wrath upon the wicked.

After the conquest of Canaan was completed under David, war was fought to protect the Israelite people. Ultimately God used warring nations against Israel and Judah to destroy them for their chronic disobedience.

Christian teachings make all men potential brothers. You wouldn't want to go to war against someone for religious reasons because you will either destroy the life of a fellow believer or condemn some one to an eternity separated from God without witnessing to them and giving them the choice first.

Jesus NEVER instructed His followers to go to war for His cause, but rather that it is a noble thing to give up one's own life for the sake of his family and friends. Christians, therefore, ought not engage in war to further a religious cause or agenda.

War might be justified for other reasons, just not for religion. Christians who use God as an excuse to wage war have no Biblically-based reasons to do so. They are mistaken if they do this.



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07 Feb 2011, 5:19 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3wpHBZV47U[/youtube]

maybe what we need is the opposite of "holy war."


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pgd
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07 Feb 2011, 5:54 pm

TheKing wrote:
By its definition War cannot be Holy so a Holy War is the biggest contradiction of all

any thought?


---

Old Testament

David vs Goliath (Symbolic good vs symbolic evil)
War is heck (unholy)
Peace is heaven (like Jerusalem - a gated city)(holy Jerusalem)(Harmony, unity, ideally - ideal only)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_of_Refuge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem

...

New Testament

Paul of the New Testament stole the idea of a Christian soldier from the Old Testament.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. (1Th 5:8 - KJV)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onward,_Christian_Soldiers

---

Looking for a fun, holy war adventure: Christian vs Apollyon?

The Pilgrim's Progress book by John Bunyan (religious science fiction)
http://www.pilgrimsprogressthemovie.com/

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seventh_Seal

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanis ... nty_Python)

---

Military–industrial complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
President Dwight Eisenhower famously warned the US about the "military-industrial complex" in his farewell address. Military–industrial complex (MIC) is a ...
History - Origin of the term - Current applications - See also
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military–industrial_complex - Cached (Google)

---

Symbolism

Good vs evil
Civilized people vs the Vikings, barbarians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Advent ... nd_Harriet
vs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_opera

Cops vs robbers
etc.

---

List of Unholy Wars include:

The Spanish Inquisition / etc.
Jihads / etc.

...

List of Holy Wars include:

WWII

The Allies vs Germany, Italy, Japan

Spirit of democracy vs spirit of fascism
Spirit of freedom vs spirit of slavery

Spirit of harmony/unity vs the Republicans and Democrats (two mudslinging parties - at times)(attempted humor, humor, irony, satire, etc.)

etc.

Modern examples of people who choose peaceful ways to resolve issues

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.

http://www.values.com/ - Politics, Philosophy, and Religion -



Last edited by pgd on 07 Feb 2011, 6:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.

AngelRho
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07 Feb 2011, 6:26 pm

It's amusing to me that no one can really argue a holy war from a Christian perspective without resorting to the OT. PGD brought up imagery of a soldier's battle gear as to how a Christian should "suit up" for spiritual battle. But inward "spiritual battles" are not the same as physical warfare.



pgd
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07 Feb 2011, 6:33 pm

pgd wrote:
TheKing wrote:
By its definition War cannot be Holy so a Holy War is the biggest contradiction of all

any thought?


---

Old Testament

David vs Goliath (Symbolic good vs symbolic evil)
War is heck (unholy)
Peace is heaven (like Jerusalem - a gated city)(holy Jerusalem)(Harmony, unity, ideally - ideal only)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_of_Refuge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem

...

New Testament

Paul of the New Testament stole the idea of a Christian soldier from the Old Testament.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. (1Th 5:8 - KJV)

Book of Revelation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon

---

The Salvation Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onward,_Christian_Soldiers (hymn)

---

Looking for a fun, holy war adventure: Christian vs Apollyon?

The Pilgrim's Progress book by John Bunyan (religious science fiction)
http://www.pilgrimsprogressthemovie.com/

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seventh_Seal

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanis ... nty_Python)

---

Military–industrial complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
President Dwight Eisenhower famously warned the US about the "military-industrial complex" in his farewell address. Military–industrial complex (MIC) is a ...
History - Origin of the term - Current applications - See also
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military–industrial_complex - Cached (Google)

---

Symbolism

Good vs evil
Civilized people vs the Vikings, barbarians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Advent ... nd_Harriet
vs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_opera

Cops vs robbers
Saved, godly Republicans vs Unsaved, godless Democrats (current politics - attempt at humor, humor, irony, satire, etc.)( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Coulter - caused a lot of the characterization of Republicans as God-fearing theists vs the Democrats as ungodly agnostics/ungodly atheists)(Coulter was funny in a way at one time but not today - year 2011 - my view - because of her use of too many false stereotypes too often)(The Democrats have had a number of good presidents reside in the White House - like Harry Truman [my view], etc. - Coulter's characterizations of the Democrat Party simply do not match history).
Angelization/Righteousness/whatever vs Demonization/Den of thieves/whatever

etc.

---

List of Unholy Wars include:

The Spanish Inquisition
Jihads

...

List of Holy Wars include:

WWII

The Allies vs Germany, Italy, Japan

Spirit of democracy vs spirit of fascism

Spirit of freedom vs spirit of slavery

Spirit of harmony/unity vs the Republicans and Democrats (two mudslingging parties - at times)(attempted humor, humor, irony, satire, etc.)

etc.

Modern examples of people who choose peaceful ways to resolve issues

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.

http://www.values.com/ - Politics, Philosophy, and Religion -



AngelRho
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07 Feb 2011, 6:38 pm

AngelRho wrote:
It's amusing to me that no one can really argue a holy war from a Christian perspective without resorting to the OT. PGD brought up imagery of a soldier's battle gear as to how a Christian should "suit up" for spiritual battle. But inward "spiritual battles" are not the same as physical warfare.



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07 Feb 2011, 6:45 pm

AngelRho wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It's amusing to me that no one can really argue a holy war from a Christian perspective without resorting to the OT. PGD brought up imagery of a soldier's battle gear as to how a Christian should "suit up" for spiritual battle. But inward "spiritual battles" are not the same as physical warfare.


you're correct. War is, itself, quite inappropriate for Christians, according to the bible. If only Christians could be convinced of this, we might be able to stop the next crusade from happening.


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AngelRho
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07 Feb 2011, 6:58 pm

waltur wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It's amusing to me that no one can really argue a holy war from a Christian perspective without resorting to the OT. PGD brought up imagery of a soldier's battle gear as to how a Christian should "suit up" for spiritual battle. But inward "spiritual battles" are not the same as physical warfare.


you're correct. War is, itself, quite inappropriate for Christians, according to the bible. If only Christians could be convinced of this, we might be able to stop the next crusade from happening.

I don't think war is "inappropriate" for Christians. I just mean in the context of fighting in the name of religion, forcing conversions, or somehow rationalizing that we're engaged in some kind of divine manifest destiny.

If there is a REASON that one SHOULD go to war, it's the idea that a sovereign nation has the right to protect its people. Putting one's own life on the line to protect family and nation is an admirable and noble quality. And you don't have to be a Christian to do that. I'm just saying that merely being a Christian doesn't excuse you from civic duty. There are certain unnamed Christian/pseudo-Christian sects that will strongly disagree with me on that. But if a Christian goes to war, it is because of a duty he owes his country. The Christian owes God no more than that.



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07 Feb 2011, 7:11 pm

How anyone can kill for something that is almost definitely a pie in the sky, is beyond me. Somehow a war is slightly more acceptable if its in the name of religion. Where if someone went to war cause a ghost or ufo told them, they'd be locked up, with the key being thrown away.


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waltur
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07 Feb 2011, 7:59 pm

AngelRho wrote:
waltur wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It's amusing to me that no one can really argue a holy war from a Christian perspective without resorting to the OT. PGD brought up imagery of a soldier's battle gear as to how a Christian should "suit up" for spiritual battle. But inward "spiritual battles" are not the same as physical warfare.


you're correct. War is, itself, quite inappropriate for Christians, according to the bible. If only Christians could be convinced of this, we might be able to stop the next crusade from happening.

I don't think war is "inappropriate" for Christians. I just mean in the context of fighting in the name of religion, forcing conversions, or somehow rationalizing that we're engaged in some kind of divine manifest destiny.

If there is a REASON that one SHOULD go to war, it's the idea that a sovereign nation has the right to protect its people. Putting one's own life on the line to protect family and nation is an admirable and noble quality. And you don't have to be a Christian to do that. I'm just saying that merely being a Christian doesn't excuse you from civic duty. There are certain unnamed Christian/pseudo-Christian sects that will strongly disagree with me on that. But if a Christian goes to war, it is because of a duty he owes his country. The Christian owes God no more than that.


when you're defending a sovereign nation, war comes to you. if war comes my way, i'll be glad that christians don't, generally, care about the details in the bible. it would be a bad day for america's security if christians put "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek" together. your inconsistencies help me sleep at night. :)


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