Is attacking definitions not allowed in PPR?

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01001011
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10 Feb 2011, 11:48 am

I challenged the Christians to define 'loving' when applied to God.

Earlier. I challenged 91 on the definition of cause, beginning, etc. (in the context of cosmological argument).

In all cases, the Christians seem disguised.

Is there any un-written rule in PPR saying that attacking the opponents' definitions are not allowed?



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10 Feb 2011, 11:50 am

01001011 wrote:
Is there any un-written rule in PPR saying that attacking the opponents' definitions are not allowed?


Doubt it.

Certain members redefine words and concepts all the time.


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10 Feb 2011, 11:52 am

01001011 wrote:
Is there any un-written rule in PPR saying that attacking the opponents' definitions are not allowed?

Absolutely not. Questioning and challenging the assumptions and definitions of someone who you think is reaching suspect conclusions is not only allowed, but encouraged.


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10 Feb 2011, 11:55 am

Is that the cause of the problem when I outright ask them to clarify (often giving examples why those cannot make sense) rather than playing their game?



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10 Feb 2011, 11:56 am

If they don't have an acceptable answer and are too dishonest to admit it (glares at 91) they will likely accuse you of using "jargon" or being "legalistic."


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10 Feb 2011, 11:57 am

Orwell wrote:
If they don't have an acceptable answer and are too dishonest to admit it (glares at 91) they will likely accuse you of using "jargon" or being "legalistic."


Or being a drone for George Soros.


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10 Feb 2011, 11:57 am

Of course not. Definitions should be clearly stated where necessary. Just avoid pedantry over spelling mistakes :)


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10 Feb 2011, 12:08 pm

In PPR, definition attacks you...

...nah. :) Nothing wrong with the questions you asked - the value of this forum is in giving everyone reason and chance to examine their undefined assumptions. On the particular question of love as applied to God, I'm simply not sure that I could formulate an answer adequate to the question. The answers I thought of fall too far short of the reality - like a pet explaining the owner's love (to use the only analogy I can think of).


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10 Feb 2011, 12:16 pm

Here is an example of how things can begin going too far:

skafather84 wrote:
Orwell wrote:
If they don't have an acceptable answer and are too dishonest to admit it (glares at 91) they will likely accuse you of using "jargon" or being "legalistic." (emphasis added)


Or [accuse you of] being a drone for George Soros. (speculative character implication added)

At that point, the only attack being launched is being directed at a WP member or two ... and that is definitely not acceptable:

===================
WrongPlanet Rules

Conduct
-----------
The following activities are unacceptable on WrongPlanet:
...
2. Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.
===================


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10 Feb 2011, 12:27 pm

ryan93 wrote:
Of course not. Definitions should be clearly stated where necessary. Just avoid pedantry over spelling mistakes :)


But pedantry over spelling mistakes is part of the fun.



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10 Feb 2011, 12:51 pm

pandabear wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Of course not. Definitions should be clearly stated where necessary. Just avoid pedantry over spelling mistakes :)


But pedantry over spelling mistakes is part of the fun.

The difference there is in having a collective chuckle at all of us together rather than just making ill-willed fun of or embarrassing someone all by himself or herself.


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10 Feb 2011, 1:33 pm

You are very free to challenge my definitions as I will not infrequently question yours.

BUT - In ALL cases the Christians seemed disguised?

A. I am a Christian.

B. I gave you with expansions and examples the straightest answer you will find from anyone here on anything.

C. I have learned this: if the structure of my mind and the facts available to me prevent me from understanding fully what someone is saying, that does NOT mean he is lying or confused or stupid or inconsistent.

If you want to question further anything I said to you, I will be happy to try to clarify.

But if that process does not lead to full understanding, do not accuse me of fudging and I will not accuse you of blatant insincerity.

From what we said earlier it is clear that some of your thought processes are not available to me and some of mine hidden from you.

This has nothing to do with whether the subject is religion, politics, linguistics, economics, or the mating call of the three-wattled trogon - FM receivers cannot receive AM broadcasts.



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10 Feb 2011, 2:11 pm

@Orwell

This must be your way of dodging the point I made. How is it not overly legalistic to state: that a premise which always renders an argument invalid cannot be described as an invalid premise? Tell me, is this an improper inference? Please note, that I am probably about to be attacked for using the appropriate terms by the person who created this thread. So yeah, how would you like me to respond, with total jargon (and be accused of hiding behind it) and proper terms or conversely, in plain language? How you answer this question may not be how everyone else thinks I should.

In General Statement

As to the OP, can you repeat the question you had about the cosmological argument (PM me if you like).

I get asked a lot of questions, then often people miss the point, then I take them through it, then they attack the way I walk with them and finally, when (if) they realize might be wrong, they usually insult me or just keep positing a response to half of what they think I said.

Considering how many strident atheists there are, being a active theist on this forum usually means that just about anything you say will result in a level of outrage akin to my stepping on your children (not that there are any objective moral values though :wink: ). There are so many more of you than me, so I simply cannot respond as well as I would like to everyone.


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Last edited by 91 on 10 Feb 2011, 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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10 Feb 2011, 2:12 pm

leejosepho wrote:
pandabear wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Of course not. Definitions should be clearly stated where necessary. Just avoid pedantry over spelling mistakes :)


But pedantry over spelling mistakes is part of the fun.

The difference there is in having a collective chuckle at all of us together rather than just making ill-willed fun of or embarrassing someone all by himself or herself.


The latter being the most fun of all.



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10 Feb 2011, 2:22 pm

pandabear wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
pandabear wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Of course not. Definitions should be clearly stated where necessary. Just avoid pedantry over spelling mistakes :)


But pedantry over spelling mistakes is part of the fun.

The difference there is in having a collective chuckle at all of us together rather than just making ill-willed fun of or embarrassing someone all by himself or herself.


The latter being the most fun of all.

You and I would definitely disagree there, but that is irrelevant. Definitions may be "attacked" on WP, but not people.


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10 Feb 2011, 2:41 pm

91 wrote:
@Orwell

This must be your way of dodging the point I made. How is it not overly legalistic to state: that a premise which always renders an argument invalid cannot be described as an invalid premise? Tell me, is this an improper inference? Please note, that I am probably about to be attacked for using the appropriate terms by the person who created this thread. So yeah, how would you like me to respond, with total jargon (and be accused of hiding behind it) and proper terms or conversely, in plain language? How you answer this question may not be how everyone else thinks I should.

In General Statement

As to the OP, can you repeat the question you had about the cosmological argument (PM me if you like).

I get asked a lot of questions, then often people miss the point, then I take them through it, then they attack the way I walk with them and finally, when (if) they realize might be wrong, they usually insult me or just keep positing a response to half of what they think I said.

Considering how many strident atheists there are, being a active theist on this forum usually means that just about anything you say will result in a level of outrage akin to my stepping on your children (not that there are any objective moral values though :wink: ). There are so many more of you than me, so I simply cannot respond as well as I would like to everyone.


you do realize that orwell is not an atheist, right?

also: the complaints he made about your statements regarding the logical argument (and it's components) were valid. he didn't just say "you're doing it wrong" and call you a dolt. he told you what you were doing wrong and, when you ignored that and kept saying the same thing for half a dozen pages, called you a dolt.

also also: stepping on children is bad. relative moral values tell us this. the notion of objective moral values is a man-made confusion.


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