what really happened at Fatima Portugal?
I've never heard of this before, but most optical solar phenomena are explainable: (links)
Sun Dog
Solar Halo (optical phenomenon)
Crepuscular Rays
Parhelic circle
Sun pillar
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Jacoby
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"The most incredible thing about miracles is that they happen."
— G.K. Chesterton
A natural explanation for what they saw is not really important; it really depends on what your looking for in the miracle. If you want to see science violated you should go watch a documentary on Unit 731; it is impossible to confirm a violation of the laws of nature since it is untestable (one can only infer it as likely). If however you want to see the hearts of thousands filled with faith and be lost in the wonder of it all, then Fatima is for you. If you are repulsed by the concept, you will most likely be a skeptic. They were told to look at the sun at that point and something happened (imagine what would have to go into this alone), this was enough for thousands to call it a miracle and it is enough for me to believe it.
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What I don't understand is why it's so easy for other people to see such miracles but I never do.
Yeah, I saw the Virgin Mary and Baby Jesus icon drip oil at the Orthodox church at my hometown in Lebanon, but how is that a miracle? And healing? Scientifically explained by the power of the mind.
Visions of Mary and saints? Where? I personally never saw one.
Why am I supposed to believe then? That's the question that I always ask.
It wasn't only peasants/children who saw it - it got reported in the secular papers, and eyewitness accounts abound (and can be found online, though take your chances there of course). One such follows, by somebody who was neither superstitious nor hysteric - notice that by his account, nobody was staring at the sun before the "crazy nonsense" started. Past that, it's your own conclusion.
From Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal:
"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.
"Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.
"During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color.
"Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.
"All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena."
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For men are homesick in their homes,
And strangers under the sun,
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Whenever the day is done."
This (to me) is very interesting are you a Marianite? (Lapsed of course)
oh and miracles shmeracles.
-Jake
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We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
Being the twin's clone,
I was not there and may or may not believe some people who were there said they saw something.
I was not there with my research team and equipment and may or may not believe that if something happened it could have been detected.
I was not there with my Institute and bay or may not believe an explanation, materialist or other, could be mooted for whatever was or was not found to have happened, if it did, or failed to occur if otherwise.
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Scholars of the New Testament and Aramaic:
WHAT did the home folks call Thomas' brother, and where was he while all that was going on? I actually do frequently wonder about that.
I've seen actual footage of a lot of supposed "apparitions". A bunch of crazies stare at the Sun for an hour, f**k up their retina's, and interperate whatever crazy visual artifacts they see as "God". It's pretty pathetic
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGJC1pM54EQ[/youtube]
Seriously, are people THAT stupid?
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The scientist only imposes two things, namely truth and sincerity, imposes them upon himself and upon other scientists - Erwin Schrodinger
Member of the WP Strident Atheists
Four theories:
1- Lies. They needed tourism.
2- Drugs: Something in the water caused it.
3- Extraterrestrials, doing experiments with people's mind to see how that religion thing works.
4- Actual divine intervention from a real god that is different from the ones the religions worship.
I'll go with a mix of 1, 2 and 3.
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Since no one else in the rest of the world saw the sun do anything out of the ordinary, we can conclude that a lot of people were hallucinating. The Sun does not do crazy nonsense in the sky.
ruveyn
Sun Dog
Solar Halo (optical phenomenon)
Crepuscular Rays
Parhelic circle
Sun pillar
While im 100% agnostic I will toss you a curveball:
What are the odds of 3 kids claiming divine visions who manage to get thousands of people to come with them to a certain spot and have one of the above optical solar phenomena happen that day (and never repeat again)?
I'm more inclined to say the whole thing was a mass hallucination or group-reinforced hysteric memory. I say this because those thousands of people were all there already under the frame of mind that something holy/otherwordly was going to happen... as experiments today have shown, all you need is for a few people in the crowd to start claiming irrational things under such conditions and in a short period of time everyone else will convince themselves that they saw something.
1- Lies. They needed tourism.
2- Drugs: Something in the water caused it.
3- Extraterrestrials, doing experiments with people's mind to see how that religion thing works.
4- Actual divine intervention from a real god that is different from the ones the religions worship.
I'll go with a mix of 1, 2 and 3.
Recommend scrapping theory 1, or at least its subset - Portagul was then under Communist rule, and the government went so far as to arrest/detain the children at one point. Hope of personal gain wouldn't have seen the whole thing through.
_________________
For men are homesick in their homes,
And strangers under the sun,
And they lay their heads in a foreign land
Whenever the day is done."
Sun Dog
Solar Halo (optical phenomenon)
Crepuscular Rays
Parhelic circle
Sun pillar
While im 100% agnostic I will toss you a curveball:
What are the odds of 3 kids claiming divine visions who manage to get thousands of people to come with them to a certain spot and have one of the above optical solar phenomena happen that day (and never repeat again)?
I'm more inclined to say the whole thing was a mass hallucination or group-reinforced hysteric memory. I say this because those thousands of people were all there already under the frame of mind that something holy/otherwordly was going to happen... as experiments today have shown, all you need is for a few people in the crowd to start claiming irrational things under such conditions and in a short period of time everyone else will convince themselves that they saw something.
I'd say mass hallucination or just what occurred in ryan93's video where a bunch of ret*ds stare at the sun and applaud the artifacts they see in their burned retinas.
Seriously...they applauded. Even in the context of something divine...applauding like some freakin' magic act? Beyond stupidity.
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Seriously...they applauded. Even in the context of something divine...applauding like some freakin' magic act? Beyond stupidity.
It's fantastic, isn't it It's video's like that that make be worry a little bit less about Fatima
_________________
The scientist only imposes two things, namely truth and sincerity, imposes them upon himself and upon other scientists - Erwin Schrodinger
Member of the WP Strident Atheists
I've seen actual footage of a lot of supposed "apparitions". A bunch of crazies stare at the Sun for an hour, f**k up their retina's, and interperate whatever crazy visual artifacts they see as "God". It's pretty pathetic
Seriously, are people THAT stupid?
Ryan - What was that? There were said to be apparitions at Knock, but back in the 1870s and not "sun miracles" anyway - why were people hoping for a Fatima-style repeat?
_________________
For men are homesick in their homes,
And strangers under the sun,
And they lay their heads in a foreign land
Whenever the day is done."
Last edited by Natty_Boh on 22 Feb 2011, 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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