The slogans of ingsoc a spoof of the Hegelian dialectic?&

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JakobVirgil
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28 Feb 2011, 2:19 pm

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

talk amongst your selves

-Jake

Philologos
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28 Feb 2011, 2:29 pm

Less is more.

Wisdom is realizing you don't have a clue.

My friend's favorite proverbs: Look before you leap for he who hesitates is lost.

My favorite proverbs: Anyone who takes another's advice has only himself to blame for the outcome, and he who does not listen to advice will regret it.

I could pull out more and more apropos, but I am not equipped to haggle about Hegel, so I will sit back and listen.

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28 Feb 2011, 2:50 pm

Freedom fighters are terrorists.

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Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

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28 Feb 2011, 3:07 pm

Quite possibly. Hegel was a large influence on Marx and, through Marx, most other socialist thinkers.

Alternately, the real Orwell could have been using those slogans to illustrate how states lie to their citizens, except that in the case of IngSoc the lies were more evident to fulfill the purposes of satire/parody of the flaws he saw in his own and other real-world governments. It doesn't have to be dialectical at all, and remember that when Orwell was writing the slogans of "War for Democracy, War for Peace, War to end War" were still a recent memory.

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JakobVirgil
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28 Feb 2011, 3:37 pm

Orwell wrote:

was Orwel an anti-marxist?

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01 Mar 2011, 2:43 am

Ask him.

I would say both Orwell and Swift are ambiguous as to their antis and pros, though clear enough in their prose, because of seeing and describing unambiguously certain human traits which may be denied but not refuted or eradicated. Orwell and Swift [I cannot say about Huxley, have no more than skimmed segments] predict Hitler and Jim Jones and Stalin and Chomsky and arguably Ruth Brend.

Not so much an espoused ideology as a look in the mirror of humanity, a dark glass indeed.

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01 Mar 2011, 8:34 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

was Orwel an anti-marxist?

I'm not sure, but I would guess not. He was an ardent supporter of democratic socialism, and a huge opponent of Stalinism.

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JakobVirgil
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01 Mar 2011, 10:19 am

Orwell wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

was Orwel an anti-marxist?

I'm not sure, but I would guess not. He was an ardent supporter of democratic socialism, and a huge opponent of Stalinism.

in the spanish civil war he fought in an anarchist unit.

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01 Mar 2011, 11:03 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

Orwell wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

was Orwel an anti-marxist?

I'm not sure, but I would guess not. He was an ardent supporter of democratic socialism, and a huge opponent of Stalinism.

in the spanish civil war he fought in an anarchist unit.

I recall reading that he was in a Trotskyist unit for at least part of the time. But in Spain he was probably mostly fighting against fascism, rather than specifically for any given opposition movement.

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JakobVirgil
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01 Mar 2011, 11:14 am

Orwell wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Orwell wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

was Orwel an anti-marxist?

I'm not sure, but I would guess not. He was an ardent supporter of democratic socialism, and a huge opponent of Stalinism.

in the spanish civil war he fought in an anarchist unit.

POUM as he describes it in Homage to Catalonia* seems very Anti-authoritarian. and left communists like Trotsky (snowball) border on the anarchists.
but I looked it up and yes the POUM is described as Trotsyite although not as vigorously so as other groups.
*imho Your best book mr Orwell

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01 Mar 2011, 2:40 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Orwell wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

was Orwel an anti-marxist?

I'm not sure, but I would guess not. He was an ardent supporter of democratic socialism, and a huge opponent of Stalinism.

in the spanish civil war he fought in an anarchist unit.

That could fit.

In an anarchist brigade, who commands?

JakobVirgil
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01 Mar 2011, 3:06 pm

Philologos wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Orwell wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

was Orwel an anti-marxist?

I'm not sure, but I would guess not. He was an ardent supporter of democratic socialism, and a huge opponent of Stalinism.

in the spanish civil war he fought in an anarchist unit.

That could fit.

In an anarchist brigade, who commands?

read the book its one of the issues.
I think his critique of stalinism comes from the left.
-Jake

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