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Bradley Manning hit with new charges; could face death

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Orwell
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04 Mar 2011, 11:29 am

91 wrote:
I think of Yemen rather the same way I do about Kosovo. The idea that it is right or intelligent has nothing to do with the question of legality. Kosovo was both right and intelligent; it was also, most likely, illegal. Underestimating the threat that is presently emanating from Yemen would be a mistake.

In short, you do not believe in the rule of law, but rather in doing whatever is convenient. You are an apologist for government by military junta.


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Inuyasha
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04 Mar 2011, 12:00 pm

Zara wrote:
What's happening with Manning is probably the most disgraceful thing the US has/is done in the past few years. The government already has enough of a case against him to put him away officially, but they're doing this BS just to get him to unlawfully confess that Assange put him up to everything.


Uh he is also a security risk that they are afraid may pass classified information on to other people.



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04 Mar 2011, 12:12 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Zara wrote:
What's happening with Manning is probably the most disgraceful thing the US has/is done in the past few years. The government already has enough of a case against him to put him away officially, but they're doing this BS just to get him to unlawfully confess that Assange put him up to everything.


Uh he is also a security risk that they are afraid may pass classified information on to other people.


:roll:

Not a good enough excuse to warrant torture.


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04 Mar 2011, 12:14 pm

Orwell wrote:
91 wrote:
I think of Yemen rather the same way I do about Kosovo. The idea that it is right or intelligent has nothing to do with the question of legality. Kosovo was both right and intelligent; it was also, most likely, illegal. Underestimating the threat that is presently emanating from Yemen would be a mistake.

In short, you do not believe in the rule of law, but rather in doing whatever is convenient. You are an apologist for government by military junta.


International law is too undefined for it to be effective. But norms however are well developed and worth defending.


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04 Mar 2011, 12:19 pm

It's in violation of American law as well. And international law is clear in plenty of places, there is just no enforcement power.


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04 Mar 2011, 12:20 pm

Zara wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Zara wrote:
What's happening with Manning is probably the most disgraceful thing the US has/is done in the past few years. The government already has enough of a case against him to put him away officially, but they're doing this BS just to get him to unlawfully confess that Assange put him up to everything.


Uh he is also a security risk that they are afraid may pass classified information on to other people.


:roll:

Not a good enough excuse to warrant torture.


Is it torture or is it trying to make sure he doesn't pass a note to other prisoners with some bit of information?



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04 Mar 2011, 12:21 pm

The former.


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04 Mar 2011, 12:26 pm

Orwell wrote:
The former.


There you go making assumptions, you know you really have no business lecturing me on jumping to conclusions when you are obviously jumping to conclusions here.



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04 Mar 2011, 12:52 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Zara wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Zara wrote:
What's happening with Manning is probably the most disgraceful thing the US has/is done in the past few years. The government already has enough of a case against him to put him away officially, but they're doing this BS just to get him to unlawfully confess that Assange put him up to everything.


Uh he is also a security risk that they are afraid may pass classified information on to other people.


:roll:

Not a good enough excuse to warrant torture.


Is it torture or is it trying to make sure he doesn't pass a note to other prisoners with some bit of information?


You mean a note like "help me, I'm being tortured"?


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04 Mar 2011, 12:59 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Zara wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Zara wrote:
What's happening with Manning is probably the most disgraceful thing the US has/is done in the past few years. The government already has enough of a case against him to put him away officially, but they're doing this BS just to get him to unlawfully confess that Assange put him up to everything.


Uh he is also a security risk that they are afraid may pass classified information on to other people.


:roll:

Not a good enough excuse to warrant torture.


Is it torture or is it trying to make sure he doesn't pass a note to other prisoners with some bit of information?


You mean a note like "help me, I'm being tortured"?


Actually I mean a note that may have some password and username that gives access to the pentagon computers, that maybe people in the pentagon have no idea about. It could be the location of a safety deposit box with all kinds of other documents that he stole. You guys are just jumping to the conclusion that casts the United States in the worst possible light.



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04 Mar 2011, 1:02 pm

Orwell wrote:
It's in violation of American law as well. And international law is clear in plenty of places, there is just no enforcement power.


If international law and it's institutions obfuscate justice then there is little use in it. In the case of Kosovo it becomes quite obvious that international law was not adequate to the situation. Therefor it should be reformed, those on the ground should not have to wait. I support international law and it's evolution. However laws may not be adequate to meet situational needs. This would be true of any legal system with a lack of precedents.


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04 Mar 2011, 2:09 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Zara wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Zara wrote:
What's happening with Manning is probably the most disgraceful thing the US has/is done in the past few years. The government already has enough of a case against him to put him away officially, but they're doing this BS just to get him to unlawfully confess that Assange put him up to everything.


Uh he is also a security risk that they are afraid may pass classified information on to other people.


:roll:

Not a good enough excuse to warrant torture.


Is it torture or is it trying to make sure he doesn't pass a note to other prisoners with some bit of information?


You mean a note like "help me, I'm being tortured"?


Actually I mean a note that may have some password and username that gives access to the pentagon computers, that maybe people in the pentagon have no idea about. It could be the location of a safety deposit box with all kinds of other documents that he stole. You guys are just jumping to the conclusion that casts the United States in the worst possible light.


Presumption of Innocence is still in effect.
Whatever Manning's intent was with his leak, has already been carried out. If the chat logs from Wired are true, then Manning didn't leak this info as a malicious act against the US Government. I rather doubt he was clever as Assange and thought so far ahead to hide something else somewhere.

Regardless, according to his Defense Counsel and the brig Psychiatrist, he's been a model prisoner thus far and should have been moved to medium security months ago as usual. There's absolutely no reason to keep him in extreme isolation, POI watch, and having him sit around naked for hours. The punishment is not fitting the crime... and he hasn't been convicted yet.

Really, this sort of Gitmo imprisonment logic needs to stop. That is what is casting the US in the worst possible light.


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04 Mar 2011, 2:19 pm

Well honestly if he didn't leak the information and ends up being exonerated, he has a pretty good case for a lawsuit and a first year law student could probably represent him and easily win the civil case when he sues for damages.



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04 Mar 2011, 2:51 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Well honestly if he didn't leak the information and ends up being exonerated, he has a pretty good case for a lawsuit and a first year law student could probably represent him and easily win the civil case when he sues for damages.


It's things like this that show you to be markedly short-sighted in your view of the effects of such torture and isolation. Money doesn't mean jack to someone who's permanently mentally scarred. The kind of treatment he's been under means a most-likely permanent impairment.

And don't forget that he's yet to even be brought to a trial because they're torturing him to try and coerce him into fingering Assange as having put him up to the task and/or showing him how to hack into the files. This isn't about him as much as it is about torturing him into saying Assange did something.


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04 Mar 2011, 2:54 pm

Well, if that is the case you do realize that people can end up facing criminal prosecution and civil litigation as well as the government.



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04 Mar 2011, 3:03 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Well, if that is the case you do realize that people can end up facing criminal prosecution and civil litigation as well as the government.


They won't.

The semantic body of the dominant political view in the country right now would never pursue such a case. They'll demonize him as the worst possible traitor and cast him in the worst of light and enough people will believe it and won't care about how he's treated.

Glad I'm not a soldier since obviously Americans don't care about them or think of them as citizens in such a realm that people condone the torture of an American soldier; and let's not forget that's what he was: a soldier who believed his actions to be whistle blowing and motive absolutely matters in sentencing and what not along the legal course).


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