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Is "your not from the country we're debating about" the stupidest cop out ever devised on internet forums?
YES! 15%  15%  [ 2 ]
Doubly YES!! 85%  85%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 13

Master_Pedant
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21 Apr 2011, 3:27 pm

Okay, web forums are pretty universal things. Generally, anyone with any interest in the topic and relevant knowledge debates any given issue if they have web access. Given the nature of the thread, it may be about a particular policy in a particular nation or a more general philosophical point. Regardless, the whole point of mass access forums is to have a wide range of people debate any given issue.

Has anyone else noticed this stupid "debate nationalism" where, rather than responding to your point, someone fallaciously goes off track and asks why you are talking about someone else's country? I've noticed quite a few Americans do this, but at least one British person has done this. Isn't this one of the dumbest, genetic fallacy, non-sequitur cop outs ever invented? And doesn't it remind you of similar attempts to secretely derail conversations and valid points that folks like this Tobacco lobbyist employ?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW87GRmunMY[/youtube]


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Vigilans
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21 Apr 2011, 3:35 pm

Yeah its a pretty weak attempt at questioning a persons credibility. I just laugh at it. Most of the fools willing to use this fallacy will also be willing to make blind, un-researched assumptions about other countries so it just ends of stinking of hypocrisy in the end- but good luck making them ever willingly admit that :)


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cdfox7
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21 Apr 2011, 3:37 pm

My good sir, I find that our technological multicultural world that we live in now its more important to seek the views of our friends from overseas to help give a fresh perceptive on our domestic issues.



Master_Pedant
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21 Apr 2011, 3:38 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Yeah its a pretty weak attempt at questioning a persons credibility. I just laugh at it. Most of the fools willing to use this fallacy will also be willing to make blind, un-researched assumptions about other countries so it just ends of stinking of hypocrisy in the end- but good luck making them ever willingly admit that :)


It's also funny given that, generally, it's held that to be objective requires a degree of distance. Being to "in the fray" can distort perceptions.


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JakobVirgil
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21 Apr 2011, 3:44 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Okay, web forums are pretty universal things. Generally, anyone with any interest in the topic and relevant knowledge debates any given issue if they have web access. Given the nature of the thread, it may be about a particular policy in a particular nation or a more general philosophical point. Regardless, the whole point of mass access forums is to have a wide range of people debate any given issue.

Has anyone else noticed this stupid "debate nationalism" where, rather than responding to your point, someone fallaciously goes off track and asks why you are talking about someone else's country? I've noticed quite a few Americans do this, but at least one British person has done this. Isn't this one of the dumbest, genetic fallacy, non-sequitur cop outs ever invented? And doesn't it remind you of similar attempts to secretely derail conversations and valid points that folks like this Tobacco lobbyist employ?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW87GRmunMY[/youtube]


Aaron Eckhart is a mormon and thus a commie. :lol:


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21 Apr 2011, 3:45 pm

Oh, is this to say that the word "nation" or a reference to a nation is now to be considered invalid language? Well, how about threads which people bring up where the advocate the disbanding or destruction of nations? Or how about when referring to the government of a foreign country? Would such usage now be considered invalid in this little paradigm as well?



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21 Apr 2011, 3:51 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Oh, is this to say that the word "nation" or a reference to a nation is now to be considered invalid language? Well, how about threads which people bring up where the advocate the disbanding or destruction of nations? Or how about when referring to the government of a foreign country? Would such usage now be considered invalid in this little paradigm as well?


Uh, that actually isn't it at all. The OP is about the usage of "you're not from this nation" as a cop out or refutation of a point without any other argument.


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iamnotaparakeet
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21 Apr 2011, 3:55 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Oh, is this to say that the word "nation" or a reference to a nation is now to be considered invalid language? Well, how about threads which people bring up where the advocate the disbanding or destruction of nations? Or how about when referring to the government of a foreign country? Would such usage now be considered invalid in this little paradigm as well?


Uh, that actually isn't it at all. The OP is about the usage of "you're not from this nation" as a cop out or refutation of a point without any other argument.


Oh, well, that is invalid. A person from Australia who studies the issues of American politics would be more qualified to speak about American politics than an American whose only knowledge of politics is that "democrats are who the poor are supposed to vote for" and nothing more. You'd be right about it being a cop out.



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21 Apr 2011, 4:04 pm

Because, in the UK, it is complicated by not having control of our own country through the EU. Once we leave that, I'll be more willing to talk.

The differences between the Canadian experience and the British experience are manifest.



skafather84
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21 Apr 2011, 4:10 pm

Nationalism is the bastard child of xenophobia and pride.


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21 Apr 2011, 4:11 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Oh, is this to say that the word "nation" or a reference to a nation is now to be considered invalid language? Well, how about threads which people bring up where the advocate the disbanding or destruction of nations? Or how about when referring to the government of a foreign country? Would such usage now be considered invalid in this little paradigm as well?


Uh, that actually isn't it at all. The OP is about the usage of "you're not from this nation" as a cop out or refutation of a point without any other argument.


Oh, well, that is invalid. A person from Australia who studies the issues of American politics would be more qualified to speak about American politics than an American whose only knowledge of politics is that "democrats are who the poor are supposed to vote for" and nothing more. You'd be right about it being a cop out.


Its fair to say that however at the same time I get the impression that your pointing to the quality of knowledge of international & foreign affairs.
Would better knowledge of current foreign affair help improve domestic issues?



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21 Apr 2011, 4:12 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Nationalism is the bastard child of xenophobia and pride.


What a ridiculous, self-hating, bigoted statement that truly is.

There's nothing wrong with nationalism, of being proud of where you are from. It's when that turns into a hatred of foreigners, of difference, of people that don't look like yourself where there is a problem.

Nationalism, per se, isn't the problem.



skafather84
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21 Apr 2011, 4:15 pm

Tequila wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Nationalism is the bastard child of xenophobia and pride.


What a ridiculous, self-hating, bigoted statement that truly is.

There's nothing wrong with nationalism, of being proud of where you are from. It's when that turns into a hatred of foreigners, of difference, of people that don't look like yourself where there is a problem.

Nationalism, per se, isn't the problem.



I stand by my original statement in the context of political nationalism. Being proud of your culture, cuisine and what not isn't a bad thing; turning it into a political platform is.


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21 Apr 2011, 4:18 pm

Tequila wrote:
Because, in the UK, it is complicated by not having control of our own country through the EU. Once we leave that, I'll be more willing to talk.

The differences between the Canadian experience and the British experience are manifest.


The answer, then, is simply to outline the differences rather than try to change the topic to a debate about Canadian immigration policy.


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cdfox7
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21 Apr 2011, 4:20 pm

Tequila wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Nationalism is the bastard child of xenophobia and pride.


What a ridiculous, self-hating, bigoted statement that truly is.

There's nothing wrong with nationalism, of being proud of where you are from. It's when that turns into a hatred of foreigners, of difference, of people that don't look like yourself where there is a problem.

Nationalism, per se, isn't the problem.


And theres a fine line with that which makes the difference between being patriotic to ones own country & a fascist.



Last edited by cdfox7 on 21 Apr 2011, 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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21 Apr 2011, 4:21 pm

We have a very divided country in many ways - it's 'us' and 'them'. Whites and Muslims don't generally mix or socialise much and there is a not inconsiderable amount of segregation and 'white flight'. Debate on immigration is impossible in this country. Mention 'Enoch Powell' in any context and you're automatically thought of as a neo-Nazi loon (even though Powell, was in many respects a libertarian socially).