Does a Fetus and a Spiral Galaxy Have a Similar Design?

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Not just a human fetus. All developing vertebrate fetuses. If the design is similar and can be proven by science or mathematics, is it significant to the existance of God. Not, necessarily the Judeo Christian definition of God.

And no, this is not another Abortion Debate.

It has no relevance whatsoever to gods if similar structures are found in multiple places. Logarithmic spirals are found all over nature, from fiddlehead ferns to sea shells to feti to galaxies. The only theologically relevant claim to be made is that, if gods exist, they like spirals. Also circles, squares, parabolas, rectangles, hexagons and pentagons... etc.

D'Arcy Thompson, a Scientist who attended my college, wrote a book on the topic, On Growth and Form

Log Spirals are cool, but I'm pretty sure there would be a nice explanation for them if you understood the biochemistry that generates them. It's a little like Evolution; what appears to be design turns out to have a simple, beautiful mechanism generating it.

Spiral galaxies tend to be the oldest galaxies. I'm not really sure how that could pertain in any way to evidence for God. I recall in another thread that the large scale structure of the universe somewhat looks like neuronal tissue, but similar appearance =/= one and the same. It is something of an interesting coincidence, I suppose, that they, being some of the earliest galaxies, are spiral shaped, and initially organisms tend to be spiral shaped- but the similarities end there, as galactic evolution tends to involve collisions, leading to gigantic 'cloud-like' irregular galaxies that have no discernible shape- whereas in biological development, they go from spiral shaped to closer analogs to the eventual organism

But I do approve of people who are religious finding interest in astronomy and cosmology- the real beauty of the universe is there for all to enjoy, whether you think God did it or not.

People will inevitable find symettries in Nature when they look for them; neuronal tissue comes in many shapes and sizes, so it's pretty likely that a Galaxy would be shaped like it.

Somewhere, in the vast wastelands of space, there is almost certainly a penis shaped galaxy.

In that case there must be a god. And if He really exists, one should be able to find a vagina and breasts too...

It might just be a freeky coincidence that the form of a fetus resembles the form of some galaxies. Or perhaps a spiral is just an efficient form for both a galaxy and a fetus. But either way God has nothing to do with it. Biology and gravety do.

Why would God need to think or like something? Why would God need a mind like ours?

How long have has any organic life form really existed?

Can one completely separate themselves from their ancestors? Can one's ancestors completely separate themselves from the species that preceded them? Can the earliest species completely separate itself from the inanimate material that preceded it? Can that inanimate material completely separate itself from the Big Bang? If not, there is no wonder there are similarities in the Universe, it appears, at one point that it was all the same.

The fact that we are here, is evidence that we survived the Big Bang. So, if science is right at one point we were all one.

That's the God I'm talking about. It's changed quite a bit through the years, but we can't separate ourselves from it, no matter how hard we try.

And now when we look in the mirror and recognize ourselves looking back, it is evident that a part of that one God is aware that it is here.

Can one prove any of this is not true? Is there more evidence for it, or against it that we are aware of?

Very thought-provoking post. Between you, Schrodinger and George Berkley I'm sufficiently inspired to read up on monism, and Brahmannism. I think Berkely might of been onto something when he said that there is only mind; we really don't have evidence for anything else.

I was so confused and frustrated by religion in my early life. I was raised a Catholic and was determined to make logical sense of the labyrinth I was in. I was an Anthropology major in College and the exposure to different cultures drew me away from from my narrow ways of thinking. Before this, Philosophy classes had the same impact, but not as strong.

From the time I was a child, I felt like I had been here for much longer that any sense of time could relay. I was determined one day to understand how I could feel that way.

At the age of 21, I went through a period of time where I couldn't figure out who I was and why I was here. In September of that year, 1981, I felt a spark in myself that I had not felt since childhood. Much of my youth I spent walking the beach, at those times I had peaceful communion with all that I could see.

I was driven back to the beach and once more I felt like an old soul that was much more than what I saw in the mirror of myself. I wanted to make sense of God and why I was here, and I came to the last post conclusions from all that I learned and what I could feel at that point in life.

Somehow I understood the same thing at three, it took me 18 years to come up with the words that matched that understanding at three.

The human condition in someways is harder than ever, the labyrinth of religion is being overtaken by culture. Science is not the religion of the future; culture is, I think. The problem with our culture is it no longer has soul (meaning), it is a combined reflection of our needs, desires, and fears and may lead to an illusive way of life that kills one's spirit (will to go on).

It seems like it would be harder than ever for one to get in touch with the part of their being that has been here as long as there has been time. Once I found it, it did not leave me for many years to come. It is gone now for me, but I'm sure it is still there for those that are young. But it's not in the TV, Computer, or store. It's in nature, the part of us that is unique to our soul.

The Hubble recently observed two galaxies rolling over on to their backs.
Then each of the two galaxies lit up a cigarette.
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But seriously- I dont see it- any similarity between a fetus and a spiral galaxy.

The math behind it is the Golden Ratio or PHI. Found throughout nature. There are measures of it in the ratio between the width and the length of the nasal bridge of an embryo. They are using it now to detect abnormalities in fetuses by variation from PHI.

There are many other measures of it in external and internal measurements for a fetus and adults, including the heart, and kidneys.

The ratio in Spiral Galaxies is approximate to the Golden Ratio, along with Nautilus Shells and Hurricanes. From a visual perspective it is easier to see in those three things but it is evident throughout nature.

There are also some who apply it to the manifestations in our culture, like the stock market; I'm not a proponent of that but there are some interesting coincidences.

Perhaps the most interesting thing is that our technology allows us to view Spiral Galaxies. The ratio is also apparent in the distances that the planets orbit around the Sun.

It is only evidence that there are similarities in the form of those things that we observe in the Universe and our terrestial environment. We apply the design and measurements through our intelligence and the application of mathematics.

That's a very different point than the one I thought that you were making. I agree, we all follow the same natural laws - and it may be that some of the laws that make it efficient for a fern to uncoil might also be the laws that cause galaxies to spin. Monism/pantheism.

I think the key is we all follow the same natural laws. In my opinion religion in historical terms has been an attempt at observing nature both in man and the environment, and sharing with others the "rules" or laws that are derived from observations that may lead to a successful life.

It is the differences in culture, the nature of humans, and the unique environments they live in that creates the different expressions of "religion" or ritualized beliefs that people use as a guide for their life.

While there are many expressions of religion there are many similarities between them, but that is not surprising considering we all follow the same natural laws.

From those similarities we see in the universe, if there were a species similar to ours somewhere else in the Universe it is likely they would have similar guides to life; in their language it might be considered a belief in a personal God, monism, pantheism, science, culture etc., but the natural laws are the common element that remain the same.

The problem becomes evident when the religion, culture, or science creates beliefs, behaviors, and/or byproducts, that are not in balance with natural laws.

The problem is not limited to religion; there is plenty of evidence that science and culture create beliefs, behaviors, and byproducts that are not in balance with natural laws and lead us toward struggle rather than a successful life.

So now as humans we have many guides, but it makes life so much more complicated in determining which guideline is helpful and which guideline may hurt us. This creates a great deal of cognitive dissonance, something humans aren't well equipped to deal with.

We create words and definitions; it doesn't matter if we ever see the word God. We are all subject to the same natural laws, either we find a way to live with them or against them. It is our fate that is at stake.

If there is a master in our life, it is those laws; call them Buddha, Allah, God, Jesus, Confucious, Pantheism, Monism, Science, Culture, there are hundred more words to choose from but they are all an attempt to create guidelines that are in alignment with those natural laws.

So, in a discussion of Atheism, Agnosticism, Theism, Culture, Science, Politics, or most anything else; the thing we share is we all follow the same natural laws.

If any of the participants have guidelines that work with these natural laws; it is worth our time to listen to them in as an objective way as possible.

There is always the possibility that we may learn something new to make the journey of life a little easier for ourselves and others too.

... and of course, such mechanism could never have come from any "god", eh?!

The discussion of this thread is far beyond me, but that kind of simplicity is not.

Sure, but it is not necessary that a God interfered. What I was pointing out is that something as complex as a logarithmic spiral often comes from simple, identifiable causes, Complexity shouldn't immediately be thought of as requiring a cosmic "Watchmaker", but as something that can arise naturally in our universe. Complexity, or symmetries, are no more an indicator of divine intervention than simplicity and irregularity. They arise just as easily, in the right circumstances.

I wasn't arguing that an intelligent designer couldn't have created the Universe (personally, I see no evidence he did), I was saying that Log Spirals are simply objects that can arise through normal processes. No God needed.