"The End of Life and the Beginning of Survival"

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Was the American Indian more fully alive than we are?
Yes. 86%  86%  [ 6 ]
No. 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 7

aghogday
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25 Apr 2011, 3:49 pm

I often think about the life of an indoor cat vs. the life of an outdoor cat, and the apparent differences in their behavior.

I sense the outdoor cat is connected to reality in a way that the indoor cat cannot possibly know. For me, the outdoor cat seems alive in a different way.

I saw a quote with this letter in a another forum; this is a slightly longer version of it. And I wondered if our existence as an "indoor cat" is a full experience of life for a human being.

Some think that the Indians lived a short brutish way of life, before they became civilized in a new way of life, but is there truth to the statement in the letter that the end of their way of life in our Country was the end of life and the beginning of survival?

And can most here relate better to their approach of what God is than the traditional western view?

I remember as a young child a commercial of a distinguished looking Indian looking over a site of pollution and a tear running down his cheek.

I felt a sense of sadness, that seemed deeper than my life, itself, and it brought a tear to my eye also; it surprised me because so few things can do that to me. It still does, I don't quite understand, why it is the only thing that does.

It was reported that a number of people committed suicide after they watched the movie "Avatar". I see a relationship here, I don't know if anyone else would.

Quote:
Chief Seattle's Letter

"The President in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land. But how can you buy or sell the sky? the land? The idea is strange to us. If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?

Every part of the earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every meadow, every humming insect. All are holy in the memory and experience of my people.

We know the sap which courses through the trees as we know the blood that courses through our veins. We are part of the earth and it is part of us. The perfumed flowers are our sisters. The bear, the deer, the great eagle, these are our brothers. The rocky crests, the dew in the meadow, the body heat of the pony, and man all belong to the same family.

The shining water that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water, but the blood of our ancestors. If we sell you our land, you must remember that it is sacred. Each glossy reflection in the clear waters of the lakes tells of events and memories in the life of my people. The water's murmur is the voice of my father's father.

The rivers are our brothers. They quench our thirst. They carry our canoes and feed our children. So you must give the rivers the kindness that you would give any brother.

If we sell you our land, remember that the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all the life that it supports. The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also received his last sigh. The wind also gives our children the spirit of life. So if we sell our land, you must keep it apart and sacred, as a place where man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow flowers.

Will you teach your children what we have taught our children? That the earth is our mother? What befalls the earth befalls all the sons of the earth.

This we know: the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth. All things are connected like the blood that unites us all. Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.

One thing we know: our God is also your God. The earth is precious to him and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its creator.

Your destiny is a mystery to us. What will happen when the buffalo are all slaughtered? The wild horses tamed? What will happen when the secret corners of the forest are heavy with the scent of many men and the view of the ripe hills is blotted with talking wires? Where will the thicket be? Gone! Where will the eagle be? Gone! And what is to say goodbye to the swift pony and then hunt? The end of living and the beginning of survival.

When the last red man has vanished with this wilderness, and his memory is only the shadow of a cloud moving across the prairie, will these shores and forests still be here? Will there be any of the spirit of my people left?

We love this earth as a newborn loves its mother's heartbeat. So, if we sell you our land, love it as we have loved it. Care for it, as we have cared for it. Hold in your mind the memory of the land as it is when you receive it. Preserve the land for all children, and love it, as God loves us.
As we are part of the land, you too are part of the land. This earth is precious to us. It is also precious to you.

One thing we know - there is only one God. No man, be he Red man or White man, can be apart. We ARE all brothers after all."



ruveyn
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25 Apr 2011, 5:10 pm

Aboriginals had to be more alert than we are. They lived closer to nature and were not wrapped up in a cocoon of technology as we are today.

ruveyn



aghogday
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25 Apr 2011, 5:15 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Aboriginals had to be more alert than we are. They lived closer to nature and were not wrapped up in a cocoon of technology as we are today.

ruveyn


In general, who do you think was more stressed, us or them?



ruveyn
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25 Apr 2011, 5:16 pm

aghogday wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Aboriginals had to be more alert than we are. They lived closer to nature and were not wrapped up in a cocoon of technology as we are today.

ruveyn


In general, who do you think was more stressed, us or them?


Them, when the game was scarce. They were two hunts away from starvation.


ruveyn



Henbane
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25 Apr 2011, 5:21 pm

aghogday wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Aboriginals had to be more alert than we are. They lived closer to nature and were not wrapped up in a cocoon of technology as we are today.

ruveyn


In general, who do you think was more stressed, us or them?


I think that their lives would be less stressful for most of the time, with periods of greater stress when times were hard. I think that many people today live lives of almost constant low or medium grade stress.



aghogday
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25 Apr 2011, 5:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:
aghogday wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Aboriginals had to be more alert than we are. They lived closer to nature and were not wrapped up in a cocoon of technology as we are today.

ruveyn


In general, who do you think was more stressed, us or them?


Them, when the game was scarce. They were two hunts away from starvation.


ruveyn


Given that game was plentiful for an extended period of time, who would you consider more stressed then, in general as a cross section of our population.

I remember hearing a study, back in 1978 that stated that we experience more stress in a week than the aboriginal Indian experienced in a year. Perhaps a sedentary lifestyle, the bombardment of constant stimuli, and complex cultural expectation that we become accustomed to?

If that statistic was anywhere near accurate in 1978, I wonder what it would be today?

Personally, I always appreciated a hot bath, airconditioning and heating, good shelter and plentiful access to food; do the benefits stop there? Wait, I forgot about toilet paper, and indoor plumbing. :wink:



ruveyn
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25 Apr 2011, 5:31 pm

aghogday wrote:

If that statistic was anywhere near accurate in 1978, I wonder what it would be today?

:wink:


How many unburied corpses have you seen in your lifetime. Stiffs laid out in funeral homes do not count.

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aghogday
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25 Apr 2011, 5:53 pm

ruveyn wrote:
aghogday wrote:

If that statistic was anywhere near accurate in 1978, I wonder what it would be today?

:wink:


How many unburied corpses have you seen in your lifetime. Stiffs laid out in funeral homes do not count.

ruveyn


Hundreds of thousands on TV and theater throughout my lifetime. That is the problem with stress in modern society, consciously we know it's not real, but our brain, central nervous system, and stress hormones, don't know the difference.

Same thing with violent video games, no real danger, but the brain and stress hormones still react in a similar way that they would in a real situation. The intensity of the stimuli is less with TV or Video games; the difference though is people normally do it in a sedentary position, which does not allow the body to burn off the stress hormones.

I understand there is a big difference in the emotional impact, but the cumulative impact of the stimuli can't be underestimated over the course of a lifetime, or even a week.

Same thing at work for an office worker, sitting all day. Studies show they are 50% more likely to suffer a heart attack than someone with a less sedentary job. I could go on and on: rush hour traffic, crowds in malls, superwalmart, cellphones, loud traffic, a thousand other sources of noise and other stimuli that cause the human body to be stressed; and we are trapped in that stress.



TheBicyclingGuitarist
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25 Apr 2011, 5:54 pm

I thought I recognized the title of this thread, lol. Yep. However, that alleged speech by Chief Seattle was apparently written in the 1970s by a Hollywood screenwriter for a movie, but it has been quoted and popularized by Joseph Campbell (a noted scholar of comparative mythology) and others to where a lot of people think it is genuine. I even memorized it and recited it in a college speech class in 1997. There were some similar ideas that can be attributed to Chief Seattle, but the stuff about the interconnectedness of life aren't there. Those sentiments WERE common to most Native American tribes though, at least so far as I know (I minored in Native American Studies at Sonoma State University in the late 1990s).

A web page called Chief Seattle's Thoughts has more details about this. I was shocked to find that the speech I had memorized is a forgery. Apparently the guy who wrote it was also shocked that it was taken seriously, and he has tried for years to set the record straight.


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TheBicyclingGuitarist
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25 Apr 2011, 6:01 pm

OMG. This is debunking day for me about Native American portrayals in this thread!

aghogday wrote:
I remember as a young child a commercial of a distinguished looking Indian looking over a site of pollution and a tear running down his cheek.


I remember that commercial too when it was on the air. Strong stuff, well done. However that actor was Iron Eyes Cody, who wasn't even a real Native American but played American Indian characters in Hollywood movies. Near the end of his life his Italian ancestry was revealed. Nonetheless, the American Indian community honored him for his portrayals.


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aghogday
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25 Apr 2011, 6:10 pm

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
I thought I recognized the title of this thread, lol. Yep. However, that alleged speech by Chief Seattle was apparently written in the 1970s by a Hollywood screenwriter for a movie, yet it has been quoted by Joseph Campbell (a noted scholar of comparative mythology) and others to where a lot of people think it is genuine. I even memorized it and recited it in a college speech class in 1997. There were some similar ideas that can be attributed to Chief Seattle, but the stuff about the interconnectedness of life aren't there. Those sentiments WERE common to most Native American tribes though, at least so far as I know (I minored in Native American Studies at Sonoma State University in the late 1990s).

A web page called Chief Seattle's Thoughts has more details about this. I was shocked to find that the speech I had memorized is a forgery. Apparently the guy who wrote it was also shocked that it was taken seriously, and he has tried for years to set the record straight.


I also studied American Indian religion in college, and found the sentiments in the letter common to most Native American tribes. Indian language doesn't translate well into English.

Regardless of who wrote it, it is a good description of American Indian sentiment and the connectedness they experienced with nature, and their view of God. I'm not sure that an American Indian at the time could have said it the eloquent way that it is described here in English. However, I'm sure that there are many Indians today that could, from the stories that are still passed down to them.



aghogday
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25 Apr 2011, 6:19 pm

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
OMG. This is debunking day for me about Native American portrayals in this thread!

aghogday wrote:
I remember as a young child a commercial of a distinguished looking Indian looking over a site of pollution and a tear running down his cheek.


I remember that commercial too when it was on the air. Strong stuff, well done. However that actor was Iron Eyes Cody, who wasn't even a real Native American but played American Indian characters in Hollywood movies. Near the end of his life his Italian ancestry was revealed. Nonetheless, the American Indian community honored him for his portrayals.


Now that you mention, I think I remember hearing that later in my life. As you indicate it doesn't take anything away from the meaning in the commercial. More evidence here of how strongly TV affects us in our ability to distinguish what is presented from reality.



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25 Apr 2011, 6:40 pm

aghogday wrote:
Now that you mention, I think I remember hearing that later in my life. As you indicate it doesn't take anything away from the meaning in the commercial. More evidence here of how strongly TV affects us in our ability to distinguish what is presented from reality.


I am reminded of a Monty Python episode that shows the making of a film about the polar explorer Scott.

Conger: Sea, sand and sunshine make Paignton the queen of the English Riviera. But for the next six months this sleepy Devonshire resort will be transformed into the blizzard-swept wastes of the South Pole. For today shooting starts on the epic 'Scott of the Antarctic', produced by Gerry Schlick. (walks over to Schlick)

Schlick: (American accent) Hello.

Conger: Gerry, you chose Paignton as the location for Scott.

Schlick: Right, right.

Conger: Isn't it a bit of a drawback that there's no snow here?

Schlick: Well, we have 28,000 cubic feet of Wintrex, which is a new white foam rubber which actually on screen looks more like snow than snow...


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aghogday
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25 Apr 2011, 6:48 pm

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Now that you mention, I think I remember hearing that later in my life. As you indicate it doesn't take anything away from the meaning in the commercial. More evidence here of how strongly TV affects us in our ability to distinguish what is presented from reality.


I am reminded of a Monty Python episode that shows the making of a film about the polar explorer Scott.

Conger: Sea, sand and sunshine make Paignton the queen of the English Riviera. But for the next six months this sleepy Devonshire resort will be transformed into the blizzard-swept wastes of the South Pole. For today shooting starts on the epic 'Scott of the Antarctic', produced by Gerry Schlick. (walks over to Schlick)

Schlick: (American accent) Hello.

Conger: Gerry, you chose Paignton as the location for Scott.

Schlick: Right, right.

Conger: Isn't it a bit of a drawback that there's no snow here?

Schlick: Well, we have 28,000 cubic feet of Wintrex, which is a new white foam rubber which actually on screen looks more like snow than snow...


Yes, when I was young, TV was an under representation of reality. Now in someways it is an extreme representation of reality. Still not 3D though. :). That's probably coming, not so sure it is a good idea, overall.