The power of faith

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Paul of Tarsus

There have been a few discussions about faith and spiritually around here lately, perhaps most notably, Leejosepho's posts about his belief that a “higher power” had a hand is rescuing him from an alcohol addiction. It is interesting that even though he goes to a lot of trouble to point out that he is not claiming that this is proof of the existence of God, a lot of atheists keep joining the conversation to say that anyway.

Is it possible that they are both right? That faith could have a positive effect on ones life even if the deity one has faith in doesn't exist?

What think ye?

While faith in a "Higher Power" or similar concept may motivate someone to self-redemption, faith is not evidence that the "Higher Power" exists.

Faith may be both a cause and an effect, but it should never be mistaken for proof.

Last edited by Fnord on 23 Apr 2011, 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sure, faith has effects. Sugar pills do too, it's nothing surprising. The problem is that 2000 year old religions ask people to do and believe some pretty nasty things.

Faith is very useful. I have faith in various things at various times. Myself, my chair, my bank. Placebo is now known to be very effective.

Yes, very much so.

After shaking hands with Paul you might went to count your fingers.

ruveyn

You do not have to go to 2000 year religions, 3000 year religions, 1000 year old philosophies, 100 year old philosophies, or political stances and advertising lore of any age.

Faith is what makes the difference between the guy who wakes up in his mansion on a glorious spring day and grumbles because his stuffy nose keepd him from properly relishing the gourmet coffee hisd butler brings him, and the lady who crawls out of her cardboard box, brushes the now off her shopping cart, and whistles merrily as she heads out into the wind to see what she can pick up.

When there is something / someone you can put faith in - like Obama if anybody is still there, or my brother's science - it does make a difference, though. Then you get the wife who knows and understands and trusts her husband even after she learns he is a bank robber who has been living under an assumed name the past twenty years.

I will make a small bet that your are the master if the argumentum ad miscordiam.

ruveyn

Faith is, for the most part, applied irrationality.

ruveyn

Actually, my dear chap, I was simply expressing my set-in view with a couple examples.

Which I have used many a time.

No poetry intended - but then your preferred level of cynical disapproval is higher than mine.

I think that, for people who are capable of belief, believing in something that a skeptic would never accept could easily bring a lot of comfort and maybe even serve as a metaphysical rock for people who need something to lean on.

This is not just a question of belief in a magical sky father, but belief in things like psychotherapy, or antipsychotherapy if you happen to be a scientologist.

Or belief in a leader, or a plan. It must help people avoid a great deal of troubling doubt and worry.

And I'm not one of those people.

Much higher.

ruveyn

First from the oldest dictionary I happen to have:

Faith, n.; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey.
1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity,
without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth.
2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, or probable evidence of any kind.
3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed.
================================

No, and neither could any effect come about even if said deity actually did exist yet was not capable of bringing about the effect ...

>> belief; the assent [agreement] of the mind in believing something someone has declared is true

Illustration: If Johnny has declared his dog can drive a car, there is no amount or level of "assent of the mind" -- believing in the idea of a dog driving a car -- sufficient for getting a ride to work in that car (whether or not the dog exists).

So, faith can accomplish absolutely nothing unless it is placed in something that is actually true.

Note: I absolutely promise to not try to stir all of my own stuff up again ...
**empty whiskey crate previously sent out for repair**


Nicely worded! Yes, I truly do believe that happened, but I was not at all sure it actually would until after it actually had!


I have yet to ever hear anyone say the kind of thing you have just mentioned without the speaker's ego (and I do not mean yours) being the driving force behind such an accusation. No one has demanded anyone believe anything, and yet -- in my own opinion, I'd better add -- either ego, fear, pride and/or ignorance (having never before heard the testimony of the witnesses) have somehow "bowed up" and said, "Oh no, you silly man! You did that!"

That kind of faith in me could be quite flattering, but my own "belief in myself" or whatever had actually nearly killed me back in '81 ... and I once even got pissed and put a guy out of my car on the way to an A.A. meeting after he repeatedly shouted at me that I had somehow "healed myself", or whatever.

But oops, that was false pride on my part ... and I should not have done that.

Last edited by leejosepho on 28 Apr 2011, 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It seems to be a trait of the callow young and the jaded old - I have rarely met it in the merely middleaged. Number 1 son has passed my maximum back in my twenties - I may get back there, who can say?

In any case, returning to your dictum:

"Faith is, for the most part, applied irrationality." -

you should take out the "for the most pafrt". Faith even in the outcomes of the reasoning process [and most examples of faith I have seen rest on some level of reasoning, allowing that GIGO is a factor] is by definition and demonstrably irrational and often [should we differentiate] unreasonable.

That is, after all, Saul's whole point.