Turks increasingly commemorate Armenian massacre
The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,685
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.
(AP) ISTANBUL (AP) — Tourists flocking to see carpets and calligraphy at one of Istanbul's most renowned museums were met Sunday by a rare public display of opinion on perhaps the darkest episode of Turkey's history, the massacres of Armenians during World War I.
Several dozen demonstrators held red roses and photographs of the dead outside the Museum of Turkish and Islamic Art, an Ottoman-era building where historians say Armenian intellectuals were briefly detained at the outset of the 1915 slaughter.
Hours later, bigger crowds held similar events in Istanbul's Taksim square, a bustling transit hub, as well as in the capital, Ankara, and Izmir, a coastal city. It was the second consecutive year that Turkish demonstrators marked the anniversary of what many international experts say is the first genocide of the 20th century.
While the Turkish government fiercely refutes that assessment, the rate of legal action against people who dispute the official version has dropped sharply amid a gradual loosening of curbs on debate about the sensitive topic.
The small, officially permitted demonstrations are a remarkable sight in a country where the Armenian massacres remain one of the most sensitive topics, a threat to a proud, nationalist narrative of Turkish history that views outside powers and internal minorities as challenges to unity.
One easing factor was the 2008 amendment of a law that made it a crime to insult the Turkish identity and was used to prosecute Nobel laureate Orhan Pamuk for his comments about the killings of Armenians. Europe has encouraged Turkey, an EU candidate, to implement reforms, though some progress has been sidetracked by conflict between Turkey's Islam-based government and its secular opponents.
"We have to come face to face with our history," said Dogan Ozkan, a member of the Human Rights Association, a group whose work on prison conditions, Kurdish rights and other political issues led to conflict with the Turkish state over the years.
Plainclothes police stood with their backs to the demonstrators at the museum, providing security. Hardline nationalists are considered a threat to safety. In 2007, ethnic Armenian journalist Hrant Dink, who received death threats because of his comments about the 1915 massacres, was shot dead outside his office in Istanbul.
Across the border, in the Armenian capital of Yerevan, hundreds of thousands of Armenians laid flowers at a monument to the victims a century ago, and President Serge Sarkisian said Armenia strives for peace with Turkey. He praised Turkish intellectuals and others who have spoken out for reconciliation, but had stern words for the Turkish government.
"Today in Turkey, more than ever, reasonable voices are being heard," Sarkisian said. "Nevertheless, the official policy of Turkey carries on with the course of denial... For us one thing is incontestable: The policy of denial is a direct continuation of the Armenian genocide."
Many historians believe 1.5 million Armenians died in a campaign of deportation and murder. However, Turkish leaders contend the figures are inflated, saying there were many deaths on both sides as the Ottoman Empire collapsed during World War I. Turkey has proposed a joint study involving scholars from both sides, and has lamented what it says is Armenia's refusal to open some archives about the period to research.
Hundreds of Armenian luminaries, including politicians, journalists, teachers, merchants and artists, were rounded up in Istanbul on April 24, 1915 in the first sweep against an ethnic group suspected of plotting against their Ottoman rulers, according to historians.
They were held at a police station, transferred to the stone building that has since become the Museum of Turkish and Islamic Art, and then transferred by boat across the Bosporus Strait to the imposing Haydarpasa train station, built by Germans. From there, most were ferried to their deaths in the Anatolian interior.
The stone building, which has been restored, was once the palace of Ibrahim Pasha, the top adviser, or Grand Vizier, to Suleiman the Magnificent, a sultan who ruled at the height of Ottoman power in the 16th century. It sits near the iconic Blue Mosque, built in the early 17th century, and the former Byzantine church of Haghia Sophia.
Dr. Taner Akcam, a Turkish historian who chairs the Armenian Genocide Studies department at Clark University in the U.S. state of Massachusetts, said the roundup location was recorded in the memoirs of survivors.
"Some of them are very detailed and tell the story of all that happened on that day," he said. "They were brought together in that location because it was a prison at the time. They were sent to other places from there."
The debate about 1915 contaminates efforts to normalize ties between Turkey and Armenia, whose border remains closed and whose efforts to reconcile through a U.S.-backed agreement in 2009 have foundered. It has also been a source of tension between Turkey and the United States, where congressional efforts to declare a genocide have conflicted with concerns about a rupture with a key NATO ally.
On Saturday, President Obama marked the anniversary of the massacre by calling it a "horrific" slaughter and "one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century," but he stopped short of branding it genocide even though he had promised to do so as a presidential candidate.
Turkey's foreign ministry said the statement distorted the facts and was based on "domestic political considerations," an allusion to the powerful Armenian-American lobby in the United States. The Armenian National Committee of America, in turn, said the president succumbed to pressure from Turkey and resorted to "euphemisms and evasive terminology."
About 60,000 ethnic Armenians, mostly Orthodox Christians, reside today in Turkey, which is predominantly Muslim. They keep a low profile in any public discussions about 1915.
At the museum commemoration, protesters held large photographs of some of who perished, including Daniel Varoujan, a poet and school headmaster; Atom Yarjanian, a poet who studied philosophy at the Sorbonne in Paris; and Krikor Zohrab, a lawyer, novelist and parliamentarian.
One demonstrator, Ayse Gunaysu, made a documentary about Zabel Yessayan, the only female intellectual targeted in the April 24, 1915 sweep of leading Armenians. Yessayan hid in a hospital for three months, escaped to Bulgaria, sought to document Ottoman atrocities and died in the early 1940s during Stalinist purges in Soviet-occupied Armenia.
"This is the start of a long and difficult process of recognition," Gunaysu said at the commemoration. "Whether the recognition will take place or not, we'll never know."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/ ... 6892.shtml
I hope that the Turkish government accepts responsibility for this genocide and stops with their historical revisionism that does such a disservice to so many innocent victims. Armenians weren't the only people they massacred or displaced during that time period; they need to be open about this if they expect to be taken seriously by the EU or the rest of the secular world
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
What did Sadam Hussein, the Prime Minister of Turkey and Little Miss Moffet have in common?
Answer: They all found Kurds in their Way.
ruveyn
Last edited by ruveyn on 26 Apr 2011, 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wait, when did the Ottoman empire regain control of Turkey?
Weak argument. Turkey is the main successor state to the Ottoman Empire. Denying their history makes them look foolish and insidious, in the same way that the current government of Japan denying their war crimes during the Second World War and actively working to suppress knowledge of them does. The German government (well, West German, initially), as the successor to the Third Reich, accepted responsibility for their war crimes despite not being the same government.
I prefer not to hate anybody as it accomplishes nothing. As is evidenced, the Turkish people themselves are not to blame, and many want the truth accepted and made known; it is their government that is at fault- first, the Sublime Port for sanctioning the mass deportation and extermination of 'dissenting minorities', and second, the modern secular Turkish authorities who want to paint a glorified and inaccurate picture of their past
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Can you name some West German government officials who were executed for those war crimes, then, despite not having served under Hitler?
Can you name some West German government officials who were executed for those war crimes, then, despite not having served under Hitler?
Are you unaware of the Nuremberg trials? That was where the Third Reich officials involved in actual war crimes were punished
The content of their accepting responsibility involved financial reparations, anti-Nazi laws and lord knows how many official apologies. And writing about what happened in the history books, something Turkey and Japan seem to neglect to do because of their pride and goal of painting an unblemished, glorious past. Considering at the time these nations were enemies to your country I find it surprising you would side with their viewpoint of hiding their past with historical revisionism. Would you like if the Germans tried to hide that they were ever at war with America, or massacred American soldiers on a few occasions? Or engaged in unrestricted submarine warfare with your nation during times when it was neutral?
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Again, can you name anyone who was convicted in the Nuremberg trials because they were part of the West German government? As far as I can tell, all the convictions were of people from the Nazi German government, not the West German government. Please note: "West" and "Nazi" are different words.
You're not reading what I wrote. I said nothing about the revisionism, just about the concept that a government would have "responsibility" for things they had nothing to do with.
The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,685
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.
Why would West German officials be convicted? I don't know where you get that. It is quite simple: As the successor state to the Third Reich, the West German government bore the responsibility for reparations and various state apologies. The Nazis themselves were punished, and the next government in line bore the responsibility of taking care of the reparations- read after me: the government is a representation of the country, and can't just wish away the past because they weren't the government responsible at the time. This is a pretty well known fact, and has happened at various points in history- different contexts, sometimes, but the fact remains. I haven't been talking about convictions at all, I'm talking about the responsibility of a nation, which they [Germany] honorably bore, to tell their history as it was, and not as they want it to be.
Yes, very cute.
Revisionism and shirking responsibility can be interchangeable depending on the context. In this context, it would be correct. I suspect that despite your disdain for big government you see government as the end all of a nation, which is incorrect- the government is the power, and the representation, but the nation is the people, the history, the land- I will ask you again, how you would feel if the Germans denied ever fighting your country, or the SS on a few occasions massacring American prisoners, or engaging in unrestricted submarine warfare. The whole sins of the father argument is also relevant- should the sons be punished? No, but they shouldn't pretend that something that harmed countless people didn't happen to protect the reputation of people long dead to paint a glorified past
They have a responsibility to be honest about the actions of their nations past, as it does a disservice to historical fact and to the victims of genocide to continually deny it because they intend to paint an unblemished past. It is akin to Holocaust denialism- those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it
You also seem to be completely misunderstanding what it is I'm saying: the genocide happened almost 100 years ago. I think the Armenians would be happy with just having the genocide recognized. There is nobody left alive to punish for it. The time to punish people would have been decades go. Now the best they can hope for is the Turkish government simply pulls their gag order on it and gives peace of mind to these people- and the Turkish government would certainly look much more credible to the rest of the world
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
It's not a fact at all; it's a pernicious concept that is responsible for much of human suffering throughout history. If you want to look at facts, the fact is that requiring the German nation to pay reparations after World War I caused the much greater suffering of World War II. It was only the willingness to allow Germany to progress after World War II without paying reparations for most of the damage they did - and indeed, the willingness to give them a helping hand in the form of the Marshall plan - that broke the cycle of violence.
I couldn't care less. It's nice for the historians to have an accurate record, but the fact is, we beat them fair and square - why rub it in after they're down? Forgive and forget.
Again, I haven't said word one about that part of your argument. Your assumptions are yours - they're not based on anything I wrote.
Hm, that is a fair point and something I do agree on. But there is a key difference in the post World War I and post World War II situations: the Soviet Union (yes, it started becoming a big red menace after WWI, but it didn't have millions of troops and tens of thousands of tanks poised to invade Western Europe). Had the USSR not been a looming threat it might not have been that the Marshall plan was ever instituted, as the US and U.K. had a definite interest in rebuilding Europe as a preventative measure towards Communist domination. However I am not trying to say that the Turks need to pay billions of dollars, all I want, and all most of the historical community wants, is for them to stop lying about their history. I don't think that is an unfair request?
I am also of that viewpoint. I think it will be easier however, for the Armenians to forgive and forget if the Turks stop hiding from the truth. On the other side of the coin, one must also take responsibility for their past in order to move on from it- it is unlikely that will happen while the Turks remain belligerent
That is somewhat how I feel about your line of questioning with the 'convictions/executions' thing but I don't think that its really important to pursue that matter as I imagine it was a bit of a misunderstanding on both our parts. Cheers?
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
I would like to see their government acknowledge what happened, and for their history books to reflect the facts. I do think it would be easier for them to do that if people only insisted on acknowledgement of the truth, and not on admissions of responsibility.
I prefer not to hate anybody as it accomplishes nothing. As is evidenced, the Turkish people themselves are not to blame, and many want the truth accepted and made known; it is their government that is at fault- first, the Sublime Port for sanctioning the mass deportation and extermination of 'dissenting minorities', and second, the modern secular Turkish authorities who want to paint a glorified and inaccurate picture of their past
Alright, hate was the wrong word.
I despise the turks - which is to say that i look on them with contempt or aversion, or regard them as negligible, worthless, or distasteful - because of the turkish people support a government which engages in systematic oppression of minorities, right now, today.
Specifically turkish kurds, greek orthodox christians, cypriots, and armenians.
Until a majority of turks petition their government to legalize the letter "W", I will continue to view them with contempt.
