Are you alarmed by gross ignorance of science in the West?

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If they had hijacked the education system, the population would know more about evolution.

There are exceptions, though, climate change being a notable example. Here's a graph of global temperatures from 1988 to 2008:



As of 2000, or certainly 1998, it looked like the overall trend was increasing - alarmingly so in 1997-1998. That's the trend that the predecessors of today's scientists saw, and so they were global warming believers.

Today's climate scientists are mostly parroting that line. Unfortunately for them, anyone can look at the data and see that since 2000 or so, the trend has been flat, or possibly even slightly decreasing. It becomes obvious that the scientists, rather than explaining all the data, are just ignoring the data that's inconvenient for what they want to believe. The scientists lose all credibility, because they're doing bad science.

The evidence suggests otherwise, since they did hijack the education system without our seeing those results.

Of course. People are idiots if they are dogmatic in a controversial area; it's a case of either know your s**t, or shut up. I err to the latter on this particular issue, the former when it comes to biology centred controvery. I spend an hour every night reading up on the latest papers, have over 4,000 pages of Biology textbooks sitting on my shelf, and a few original ideas under my belt to make sure that I'm not a dogmatic advocate.

Well, I'm sure that makes sense to you. I have no doubt.

But a majority of republicans doubt evolution. A majority of democrats accept it. The pressure to keep it out of the classroom comes from conservatives applying pressure to the school boards at the local and state level.

I've seen that data before. It is only using tree ring analysis. The actual data maintains the current trend of warming. There are a number of problems with using only tree ring analysis. When the actual, comprehensive (including all variables) data is overlaid above that graph, it shows that it in fact is increasing, while the tree ring phenomenon dips. However there are a number of explanations as to why this happens. Unfortunately tree ring analysis is not reliable as the only source of evidence, though it is useful in some respects. Differing locations, oddly, provide different results for this sort of data, thus climate scientists have moved on from using it, for the most part (though that doesn't stop people from citing it as 'evidence'...) due to the inreliable nature of this data. Its ironic that you mention 'ignoring data' since you are using the graph that is ignoring every other variable, but I suspect you are simply not aware and are not attempting to be disingenuous, as I don't take you for that type

On topic: I for one welcome our Chinese overlords.

As long as schools are more interested in focusing on self esteem and making sure no one can fail by lowering standards, this trend will continue.

In some ways, the Christian fundamentalists may be doing as much or more harm to the USA by sabotaging our children's science education than the Islamic fundamentalists did by flying airplanes into skyscrapers. Christian fundies can almost be thought of as domestic terrorists in that sense. And, like the Islamic suicide bombers, they *think* they are doing the right thing.

The Ivory Tower used to be where people like me sat, till the cuckoos hatched and kicked us out. Funny thing, my dad and I each had an office toward the top of an actual tower - at different times in different places. Not made of Ivory, though. Now the Elite pass through the Ivory Gate to their lotus-fueled Dream Time.

How does it follow that the Elite [even if we do not categorize them as " teacher Union, left-wing intellectuals"] would, if in power, produce a more evolution conscious population?

If they were in power - and if you say they do not control the U you have not lived in the academic enclaves of a seriousd American university for any length of time - they have issues much higher on the agenda than evolution. My brother the paleontologist cares who thinks what about evolution [though he refuses to enlighten me]. Some people in other areas of the popular sciences care. But they are a minority at the U [social and lit theory are much more central] and they are not an issue. Nothing else is being taught, it is a shibboleth for entry to the program - and if people OUTSIDE the science departments think about it too much they might have an independent thought.

The Elite running the U today do not want thinkers - they want Activists. They do not want leaders - they want people who Work the Program.

THE MORE THEY ARE IN CHARGE - the less anyone will know about anything that goes beyond spitback and saluting what they choose to run up the pole.

So my latest recording assignment would indicate. It is very sad.

ruveyn

And thus I hereby declare LibertarianAS to be a cartoon character.

I concur

The problem is not in "the West" but in the United States. Europe has excellent teaching of science and math and students in the European industrial nations are well prepared.

the U.S. system of elementary and intermediate level schooling is primordial.

ruveyn

You're talking about universities. Simon Says is talking about K-12 education (at least I think he is). That's where the real battle for science education is won or lost. By the time kids get to college, that worldview is already set. And the kids who don't go to college (which is actually a large number) have only the influence of K-12 education and don't see squabbles about what is taught at the college level as being in any way relevent. But they do vote. And they will vote for politicians who are anti-science if science was never a relevent part of their childhood education.

I think what Simon Says meant was that if left wing intellectuals actually made the educational decisions at the K-12 level, there wouldn't be any evolution vs. creationism controversy. Evolution would simply be a non-controversial part of the standard science curriculum, as it used to be.

Last edited by Janissy on 12 May 2011, 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It is conservative elements in society, largely republican, that are fighting the teaching of evolution. Usually acting through school boards. If a left wing fantasy conspiracy were in charge of all aspects of education, we'd have less pressure to undermine or marginalize the teaching of evolution in public schools.

I'm talking about K-12, not university.



Who is *they*? The "elites"? The formally educated? Do you want truck drivers to run things?

It does seem to be more of an American thing. From what I know it's not as bad here in Canada (although I tend to hang out with a group of smart people who all take science classes, so I don't know for certain). I blame the Republicans, for 3 reasons:

1. They seem to be downright against science education (especially one of biology's most basic and amazing theories)
2. They are a political party that seems to try to dictate what their followers think of science--I've yet to find a Republican who's seriously concerned about global warming for instance
3. I don't like them, so they're good scapegoats