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Vexcalibur
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13 May 2011, 10:57 pm

US are thinking of ways to fight internet censorship from China and Iran.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... censorship

And that's wonderful.

Meanwhile , US legislators keep pushing for US censorship that will actually also affect everyone in the rest of the world and not just Americans.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news ... es-too.ars

"Protect IP", any time someone uses the words "intellectual property" instead of specifying copyrights, patents or trademarks, you can easily tell the person is confused and or spreading BS.


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AstroGeek
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14 May 2011, 6:10 am

I wouldn't say this is the worst case of US hypocrisy. There were far more disgusting ones during the Cold War.

Still, it is disturbing. But not altogether surprising. The Internet, while not free from them, is not entirely dependent on the US corperatocracy for its content (think about Wikipedia--it's practically Marxist in its philosophy). Sooner or later the corporations will want to start exerting control over the Internet (beyond how we access it).



Philologos
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14 May 2011, 8:07 am

At risk of seeming to invoke casting the fist stone and being perceived as more trite than I am currently perceived, I shall just ask:

which country or other human organization do you perceive as NOT hypocritical?

My department was once told by the dean of the college that, in essence, hypocrisy is a prerequisite for administration

You know Dr. Johnson:

"Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

Philologos:

"Gentlefolks, a politician's fulfilling his promises is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

The dog does not get up on his hind legs too often.



AstroGeek
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14 May 2011, 8:57 am

Philologos wrote:
At risk of seeming to invoke casting the fist stone and being perceived as more trite than I am currently perceived, I shall just ask:

which country or other human organization do you perceive as NOT hypocritical?

Not too many. And I'm sure if I dug a bit I'd find no countries at all that aren't hypocritical. The USA is just the most vocal about its many great qualities, so it irritates me the most.



Philologos
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14 May 2011, 9:02 am

Granted, the US has great media coverage.

But .. how up are you on media in Unamerica?

A Kenyan paper in the 60s was not exactly backward about coming forward singing "How Great thou Art" to the prexy. Who was praised in the press [not, to be sure, in the internationally accessible English edition!] for successful hypocrisy in his dealings.



ruveyn
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14 May 2011, 9:44 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
US are thinking of ways to fight internet censorship from China and Iran.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... censorship

And that's wonderful.

Meanwhile , US legislators keep pushing for US censorship that will actually also affect everyone in the rest of the world and not just Americans.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news ... es-too.ars

"Protect IP", any time someone uses the words "intellectual property" instead of specifying copyrights, patents or trademarks, you can easily tell the person is confused and or spreading BS.


Has the U.S. government censored you lately?

ruveyn



Vexcalibur
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14 May 2011, 10:11 am

^ Lame post to make during a discussion in which US legislators want to enable censorship of websites without even a court order and control over search engines.


At least Iran's censorship only affects Iranians.


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ruveyn
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14 May 2011, 10:15 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
^ Lame post to make during a discussion in which US legislators want to enable censorship of websites without even a court order and control over search engines.


.


Has it happened?

At any instant there are politicians who want to deprive citizens of their liberties. This has been the case since the U.S. was founded as a Republic. Consider the Alien and Sedition acts signed into law by John Adams and later repealed in Jefferson's administration..

Then there were the Comstock Laws which were State laws at censored certain books. -Lady Chaterly's Lover- was censored under such laws.

During the 1920's during the Big Red Scare things were done to anarchists and bolshies what make MacCarthy look tame by comparison. The Republic and our liberties survived somehow.

So what is all this bitching and moaning about? Nothing new has happened.

ruveyn



Philologos
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14 May 2011, 1:16 pm

I have been censored by:

academics

family members

newspapers [that was at least half misquoting]

myself [avoiding words and topics that offend against professional, public and private political corrctness]

---------

thus far, I have not been censored by the state or the church.

most of my output is more likely to be ignored than to be edited.



AstroGeek
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14 May 2011, 7:20 pm

Philologos wrote:
Granted, the US has great media coverage.

But .. how up are you on media in Unamerica?

A Kenyan paper in the 60s was not exactly backward about coming forward singing "How Great thou Art" to the prexy. Who was praised in the press [not, to be sure, in the internationally accessible English edition!] for successful hypocrisy in his dealings.

Yes. I'm Canadian, so I know what we're like. Although I admit we can be very nearly as bad (in slightly different ways) and I'd like to do something about it. But the Americans have such a condescending patriotism and their influence ensures they can broadcast it all over the world.



Last edited by AstroGeek on 15 May 2011, 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

blauSamstag
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14 May 2011, 7:58 pm

Doesn't the Philippine-American War sort of take the cake?



RedHanrahan
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14 May 2011, 8:21 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
Philologos wrote:
At risk of seeming to invoke casting the fist stone and being perceived as more trite than I am currently perceived, I shall just ask:

which country or other human organization do you perceive as NOT hypocritical?

Not too many. And I'm sure if I dug a bit I'd find no countries at all that aren't hypocritical. The USA is just the most vocal about its many great qualities, so it irritates me the most.


Exactly, not to mention being kind of sociopathic...


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Vexcalibur
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14 May 2011, 8:46 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Has it happened?

It is happening. If you have a good reason to think that the law or an even worse modification (seeing how this started with COICA and then got much worse) will not pass, then I would love to hear the mechanism by which this this thing will be averted.


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Vexcalibur
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16 May 2011, 8:05 pm

http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000853.html

Quote:
"The slaves were killed, and the soldiers who killed them
were also slain, so that no unholy person should ever know
the exact location of the burial site."
-- The Mummy (1932)

In the classic 1932 film The Mummy, the character of Imhotep, portrayed by Boris Karloff, commits what is considered to be a terrible sacrilege, and is condemned to be mummified and buried alive. In an attempt to assure that his grave is never found, all of the slaves who conducted the burial were killed by soldiers, and those soldiers were themselves killed, despite the fact that none of them had in any way participated in Imhotep's supposedly blasphemous acts.

All except Imhotep were slaughtered not for actions taken, but for "forbidden" knowledge possessed.

In the Orwellian world of 1984 even "wrong thinking" was theoretically punishable as "thoughtcrime" -- but in the real world of the United States at least, punishable crimes are usually associated with specific acts intended to break the law. Mere knowledge, and in most cases even the dissemination of knowledge when a crime is not intended, are typically not punishable.

Some persons -- including various important and powerful politicians -- now appear to have forgotten, or are simply ignoring, these key principles of free speech.

While the reactions to my recent discussions regarding link criminalization and government-imposed search engine results censorship ("Free Speech Be Damned!": Congressional Bill Would Censor Search Engines and Censorship, Governments, and Flagellating Google [White Paper]) were overwhelmingly positive, I did receive a few responses that suggested significant confusion regarding the differences between knowledge and crime.

Quoting from one message that arrived a few days ago, from a book author upset that it was possible to find torrents containing his work:

"Most ring leaders and people at the center of organized crime are just
talkers. They're just moving their lips, but somehow the crime is
completed. Should all prosecution be treated as 'censoring' the lip
movers? Is Google much different from the other ring leaders?"

The implications of that statement and question are both incorrect and dangerous, in that they attempt to directly equate knowledge itself with the commission of crimes.

In the non-Internet world, despite occasional government attempts to exert broad censorship control over ideas, the very "high bar" appropriately set for any government intrusions on free speech in the U.S. have been quite clear.

It's illegal in most places to pimp prostitutes. But if someone casually asks if you know where they can find a call girl, you do indeed happen to know, and you then provide that information -- have you committed a crime?

Back in the days of phone phreaks, friends would occasionally ask me if I knew how to build a so-called "blue box" for making free long-distance calls. I was a student of the telephone networks. I knew how to build blue boxes and much more. Did I commit a crime if I simply told someone how to construct such a device?

In 1971, Abbie Hoffman published Steal This Book -- a veritable cookbook for illicit activities ranging from cheating AT&T to building pipe bombs. The book ended up on Best Seller lists. Was it criminal to publish that knowledge?

In all of these cases, and innumerable more that I could list, the answer is no.

Economically participating with a call-girl ring may be a crime. Actually using a blue box to commit toll fraud was clearly illegal. Detonating a pipe bomb could be a major offense.

But simply discussing these topics would virtually always appropriately fall under free speech protections, unless those discussions were part of an intent to make actual use of that knowledge in a criminal manner.

When we apply these concepts to Web links and search engine results, we move even further away from any possible automatic association with criminality, particularly in the latter case. Now we're normally not even talking about directly providing information that might be used in "illicit" ways, we're dealing with where information perhaps can be found.

With major search engines, their indices can include link references to billions of Web pages on every conceivable topic. It would be ludicrous in the extreme to suggest that search engine query results could somehow rise to the level of criminal intent and participation.

What's happening today is that various players, in government and assorted interest groups, are attempting to leverage Internet technology and the centrality of search engines such as Google, to try impose censorship regimes on the Web that they could not successfully impose in the "brick and mortar" world.

It is doubly ironic that the most visible of these efforts now are attempting to use intellectual property economics as the means to impose massive government censorship, rather than, say, national security concerns -- though perhaps this particular prioritization could be explained by "following the money" of political campaign contributions back to their sources.

As I've mentioned before, depending on the courts to block such egregious censorship attempts may be a risky proposition at best. Ultimately, it's up to Internet users themselves -- around the world -- to fully understand what is at stake in this battle, and how much they each individually, and all of us collectively, have to lose. As both history and current events teach us, ultimately the people, not governments alone, really do have the final say.

There are forces who desperately wish to use government censorship of links and search engines to impose their own version of eliminating "undesirable" knowledge -- just as brutally as was done to poor Imhotep.

In our case, however, we still have time to fight back. If we really do care about free speech on the Internet, we will not permit it to be buried in the desert of totalitarianism like a struggling mummy, its witnesses mangled by the spears of those who would restrict knowledge for their own distorted ends.

We must not allow censorship to become the Internet's tomb.

--Lauren--


The idea is asking everyone to police the internet and do the copyright cartel's job. That includes WP.net. For example, the site would need to either pay active moderators so that they can constantly watch the site for probable links to things that may look like infringing copyrights or it may get shut down without a court order. Or it would have to make posts require approval before being visible. Basically, any trace of free discussion and openness will be wiped out of the web just so some few stop doing THEIR jobs. Long before the internet, detecting infringements of your own copyrighted work and providing evidence that they are infrigements was YOUR JOB. But the copyright industry is so lazy that would rather lobby politicians to kill the internet than actually do such minimal effort.


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ruveyn
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16 May 2011, 9:05 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Has it happened?

It is happening. If you have a good reason to think that the law or an even worse modification (seeing how this started with COICA and then got much worse) will not pass, then I would love to hear the mechanism by which this this thing will be averted.


Where and how. Be very specific. Has anyone's rights been infringed?

ruveyn



Vexcalibur
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26 May 2011, 6:54 pm

Please give me some hope the plan for US internet censorship called "Protect IP" is not going to pass. It has already been approved unanimously by the committee.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news ... -floor.ars

There is no sign at all this blatant internet censorship law is not going to be approved.

Yes please, whilst you pretend everything is fine, your government is right about to approve a law that will censor the internet even worse than Iran. All while you request for actual examples of abuses of the law project that is being discussed. I cannot give you examples because the law has not been approved yet, but soon enough it will. US internet censorship is happening, congrats.

Unlike Chinese censorship, the US government will be able to shutdown any website for EVERY country WITHOUT a court order. It is freaking ridiculous.

If you want punctual examples of how your pretty sweet government would abuse its new internet censorship powers, just look for wikileaks. Just a small sample: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology ... rs-rights/


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