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Inuyasha
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28 May 2011, 7:12 pm

Part of it may be the fact that Israel is a reminder to many in Europe of something they wish to forget. Part of it is also the fact the mainstream media has out and out lied about Israel at times in favor of the Palestinians. Heck the United Nations got caught in attempt to smear Israel (oh and the government that called the UN on it was Canada).



MarketAndChurch
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28 May 2011, 7:19 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

I have to agree with that....but yeah I really don't buy into that whole 'the jews are gods chosen people so we must protect Israel' rubbish. Which is my basic understanding of the whole Jewish people restoring faith, I could be wrong though but that is based on what some christians say.


It's not because they are God's chosen people. Their not even "chosen" as in they are elite amongst man... they are chosen in that they have a specific task on earth to spread ethical monotheism and ethical behavior. That's it...

For what its worth, it's been a great sacrifice that has costed too many Jews their lives. Targeted everywhere they go, first the Christians, then the secularists, now the Muslims... That they have survived as a people is a miracle of God considering mankind's disdain for them.

What animates us to support the one Jewish nation on earth is our instructions in the bible noting that those who bless the Jews will be blessed, and those who curse the jews will be cursed.


Ok well I certainly do not think the U.S should be supporting them on account of religious prophecies....and just the idea of a Jewish Nation bothers me because I do not like theocracies. I actually dislike all organized religion. So while I think Israel is a quite corrupt nation I do not like any of the surrounding Muslim theocracies any more then I like Israel.



It is a democracy. The 25% of the nation that is arab participate in this democracy, and it is a secular state.

Remember that, whereas a secular christian is a bit of an oxymoron, you are a Jew whatever you believe if you are born one. So a Jewish nation just means a nation of Jews. Some follow Judaism, some follow another religion, a large number are secular though.

That is fine that you don't like any of it's surrounding neighbors, that is your preference, but I don't ever expect you to make a topic: "What gives with Iraq..." or "Lebanon doesn't have a right to exist" or "Supporting Tunisia???"


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MarketAndChurch
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28 May 2011, 7:25 pm

Sand wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
And just throwing this out there......but not all the Jews in the world live in Israel, and I doubt all of them support Israel. Just like not all Muslims live in the middle east and not all Muslims support the Muslim theocracies.


There is more open criticism of current Israeli policies within Israel than there is in the USA although censorship and legal punishments are in the works in Israel to move it more towards totalitarianism.

International policies are not moved by Biblical considerations or sentimentality. The funding of Israel by the USA must have a more solid basis for action than these. The Israeli lobbies in the USA have real political power and the US Congress responds to that with funding support for Israel. That the US Congress is fairly totally corrupt is obvious to any observer and a good deal of Israeli support comes out of that.


Where is the all-powerful Egyptian lobby that Egypt may receive 1.5 billion dollars a year? What about the 8 billion a year to the continent of Africa? What about the billions more to developing Democracies or to help prop up Colombia, to support anti-drug efforts in Mexico, etc...

That is true of their being criticism within Israel from its media, I think it is the envy of most of the world. I wish the arab states would allow at least a little dissent.


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MarketAndChurch
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28 May 2011, 7:29 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Part of it may be the fact that Israel is a reminder to many in Europe of something they wish to forget. Part of it is also the fact the mainstream media has out and out lied about Israel at times in favor of the Palestinians. Heck the United Nations got caught in attempt to smear Israel (oh and the government that called the UN on it was Canada).


But they are proud of the other countries they drew on the map when they redrew the middle east? There's room for 15+ muslim states, but no room for 1 jewish state? I believe there is truth to this, but I don't know why they romanticize the palestinians and the other arab countries in the area who share nothing in common with them.


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Sand
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28 May 2011, 8:47 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sand wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
And just throwing this out there......but not all the Jews in the world live in Israel, and I doubt all of them support Israel. Just like not all Muslims live in the middle east and not all Muslims support the Muslim theocracies.


There is more open criticism of current Israeli policies within Israel than there is in the USA although censorship and legal punishments are in the works in Israel to move it more towards totalitarianism.

International policies are not moved by Biblical considerations or sentimentality. The funding of Israel by the USA must have a more solid basis for action than these. The Israeli lobbies in the USA have real political power and the US Congress responds to that with funding support for Israel. That the US Congress is fairly totally corrupt is obvious to any observer and a good deal of Israeli support comes out of that.


Where is the all-powerful Egyptian lobby that Egypt may receive 1.5 billion dollars a year? What about the 8 billion a year to the continent of Africa? What about the billions more to developing Democracies or to help prop up Colombia, to support anti-drug efforts in Mexico, etc...

That is true of their being criticism within Israel from its media, I think it is the envy of most of the world. I wish the arab states would allow at least a little dissent.


You really should keep up with current events. The outstanding approval of Netanyahu on his rather idiotic speech before Congress drew even the relatively conservative disapproval of the New York Times for it's obvious asskissing.



Sweetleaf
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28 May 2011, 10:09 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sand wrote:
It's really up to Israel to settle its own problems. If it cannot resolve it's conflicts in a reasonable and peaceful manner that would immensely benefit the whole region then they must suffer the consequences. Their whole psychology is based on the false premise that they are oppressed which is ludicrous considering their wealth and military power. They are behaving extremely badly.


How does one navigate around the fact that the entire region(and most of the world) prefers they not exist at all?

No one takes issue with the right of Panama or Pakistan to exist...

The United States has great wealth and military power as well, but most of the world wishes we not exist either.


So what they have the right to do whatever they feel like, because the entire world supposedley hates Jews?


It is important to note that given the hostility of its neighbors, whatever the steps that Israel takes to protect itself is Israel's business. It's not your son or daughter in the Israeli military, you loose nothing and only add to the chorus of world opinion seeking to defame, discredit, and destroy this tiny nation.

I wouldn't say that is true of China, whose expansionism isn't to "protect" itself but to secure economic opportunities.

It is also important to note that the fact that we're even talking about them is proof of this unjust preoccupation.

Why the preoccupation? If your issue is countries doing immoral things, there's just about the entire continent of Africa or half the continent of South America with all its social issues for you to bring up and take issue with. But you, and a large portion of the western hemisphere... so your interest peeked didn't come up by chance. You have access to the world's obsession with this country, and no access to thousands who die every year in Iran or Tibet from political oppression.

Israel is the obsession and so far there is not an ounce of justification for it.


Yes I agree whatever steps Israel wants to take to protect itself are Israels buisness........and Israels responsability not the responsibility of the U.S. or any other countries. And what I am suggesting is the U.S should stop supporting Israel because of its corrupt nature, same with any other corrupt nations we might be supporting. And I am hardly obsessed with this I just wanted to see what people think about this issue and if they think it is fair to call people like me Anti-semetic when I do not hate Jews but am opposed to the U.S and other countries supporting Israel.



Inuyasha
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29 May 2011, 2:41 pm

Sand wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sand wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
And just throwing this out there......but not all the Jews in the world live in Israel, and I doubt all of them support Israel. Just like not all Muslims live in the middle east and not all Muslims support the Muslim theocracies.


There is more open criticism of current Israeli policies within Israel than there is in the USA although censorship and legal punishments are in the works in Israel to move it more towards totalitarianism.

International policies are not moved by Biblical considerations or sentimentality. The funding of Israel by the USA must have a more solid basis for action than these. The Israeli lobbies in the USA have real political power and the US Congress responds to that with funding support for Israel. That the US Congress is fairly totally corrupt is obvious to any observer and a good deal of Israeli support comes out of that.


Where is the all-powerful Egyptian lobby that Egypt may receive 1.5 billion dollars a year? What about the 8 billion a year to the continent of Africa? What about the billions more to developing Democracies or to help prop up Colombia, to support anti-drug efforts in Mexico, etc...

That is true of their being criticism within Israel from its media, I think it is the envy of most of the world. I wish the arab states would allow at least a little dissent.


You really should keep up with current events. The outstanding approval of Netanyahu on his rather idiotic speech before Congress drew even the relatively conservative disapproval of the New York Times for it's obvious asskissing.


:lol:

Btw, I'm laughing at you not with you.

The New York Times isn't even remotely conservative, they are Michael Moore style left-wing. Additionally, a few years ago they got lectured by the National Enquirer on Journalistic Standards.



Kraichgauer
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29 May 2011, 5:04 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sand wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
And just throwing this out there......but not all the Jews in the world live in Israel, and I doubt all of them support Israel. Just like not all Muslims live in the middle east and not all Muslims support the Muslim theocracies.


There is more open criticism of current Israeli policies within Israel than there is in the USA although censorship and legal punishments are in the works in Israel to move it more towards totalitarianism.

International policies are not moved by Biblical considerations or sentimentality. The funding of Israel by the USA must have a more solid basis for action than these. The Israeli lobbies in the USA have real political power and the US Congress responds to that with funding support for Israel. That the US Congress is fairly totally corrupt is obvious to any observer and a good deal of Israeli support comes out of that.


Where is the all-powerful Egyptian lobby that Egypt may receive 1.5 billion dollars a year? What about the 8 billion a year to the continent of Africa? What about the billions more to developing Democracies or to help prop up Colombia, to support anti-drug efforts in Mexico, etc...

That is true of their being criticism within Israel from its media, I think it is the envy of most of the world. I wish the arab states would allow at least a little dissent.


You really should keep up with current events. The outstanding approval of Netanyahu on his rather idiotic speech before Congress drew even the relatively conservative disapproval of the New York Times for it's obvious asskissing.


:lol:

Btw, I'm laughing at you not with you.

The New York Times isn't even remotely conservative, they are Michael Moore style left-wing. Additionally, a few years ago they got lectured by the National Enquirer on Journalistic Standards.


Then all the more reason to read the New York Times!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Inuyasha
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30 May 2011, 12:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sand wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
And just throwing this out there......but not all the Jews in the world live in Israel, and I doubt all of them support Israel. Just like not all Muslims live in the middle east and not all Muslims support the Muslim theocracies.


There is more open criticism of current Israeli policies within Israel than there is in the USA although censorship and legal punishments are in the works in Israel to move it more towards totalitarianism.

International policies are not moved by Biblical considerations or sentimentality. The funding of Israel by the USA must have a more solid basis for action than these. The Israeli lobbies in the USA have real political power and the US Congress responds to that with funding support for Israel. That the US Congress is fairly totally corrupt is obvious to any observer and a good deal of Israeli support comes out of that.


Where is the all-powerful Egyptian lobby that Egypt may receive 1.5 billion dollars a year? What about the 8 billion a year to the continent of Africa? What about the billions more to developing Democracies or to help prop up Colombia, to support anti-drug efforts in Mexico, etc...

That is true of their being criticism within Israel from its media, I think it is the envy of most of the world. I wish the arab states would allow at least a little dissent.


You really should keep up with current events. The outstanding approval of Netanyahu on his rather idiotic speech before Congress drew even the relatively conservative disapproval of the New York Times for it's obvious asskissing.


:lol:

Btw, I'm laughing at you not with you.

The New York Times isn't even remotely conservative, they are Michael Moore style left-wing. Additionally, a few years ago they got lectured by the National Enquirer on Journalistic Standards.


Then all the more reason to read the New York Times!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Funny you would support someone that printed an article praising a domestic terrorist on 9/11/2001.



Kraichgauer
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30 May 2011, 2:01 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sand wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
And just throwing this out there......but not all the Jews in the world live in Israel, and I doubt all of them support Israel. Just like not all Muslims live in the middle east and not all Muslims support the Muslim theocracies.


There is more open criticism of current Israeli policies within Israel than there is in the USA although censorship and legal punishments are in the works in Israel to move it more towards totalitarianism.

International policies are not moved by Biblical considerations or sentimentality. The funding of Israel by the USA must have a more solid basis for action than these. The Israeli lobbies in the USA have real political power and the US Congress responds to that with funding support for Israel. That the US Congress is fairly totally corrupt is obvious to any observer and a good deal of Israeli support comes out of that.


Where is the all-powerful Egyptian lobby that Egypt may receive 1.5 billion dollars a year? What about the 8 billion a year to the continent of Africa? What about the billions more to developing Democracies or to help prop up Colombia, to support anti-drug efforts in Mexico, etc...

That is true of their being criticism within Israel from its media, I think it is the envy of most of the world. I wish the arab states would allow at least a little dissent.


You really should keep up with current events. The outstanding approval of Netanyahu on his rather idiotic speech before Congress drew even the relatively conservative disapproval of the New York Times for it's obvious asskissing.


:lol:

Btw, I'm laughing at you not with you.

The New York Times isn't even remotely conservative, they are Michael Moore style left-wing. Additionally, a few years ago they got lectured by the National Enquirer on Journalistic Standards.


Then all the more reason to read the New York Times!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Funny you would support someone that printed an article praising a domestic terrorist on 9/11/2001.


I have no idea what you're talking about. And no, I don't praise terrorists, domestic or otherwise.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Sand
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30 May 2011, 2:30 pm

For a detailed analysis of Israeli influence on US politics see http://www.counterpunch.org/levine05302011.html



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30 May 2011, 3:12 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok why is it that a lot of people seem to think as an american you are obligated to support Israel?
Because the Pals are a bunch of lousy, lazy, untrustworthy bastards, compulsive liars, deceitful vermin and hypocritical jerk-offs that we'd just as soon bomb as look at. They are disgusting, asinine people, and the concept of letting those useless bastards overrun Israel when the culture that happens to be there now has done a reasonable job of doing something productive with themselves makes us want to toss up everything we've eaten in the past twelve weeks.

The Palestinians are a bunch of bomb-building cave-semites (or they would be building bombs if they had enough god damn sense among their whole f*****g ethnicity to put one together), less than medieval in their culture and totally unlikely to ever go anywhere or accomplish anything with themselves whatsoever. They don't have a future, and they are not entitled for us to give a crap about them whatsoever. Quite frankly, I wouldn't feel concerned over the bastards if the Jews actually were gassing the f*****s.

To tell you the truth, I think the Jews are too f*****g soft on the idiot dickheads, and I would just as soon the Israeli government carpet-bomb the whole f*****g Gaza Strip until it glows in the f*****g dark because I'm about sick to the point that it makes me want to vomit of arguing with the stupid idiots who expect me to have sympathy for the self-destructive cave-semites. The Jews treat their sick and wounded and give them electricity for f*****g free and get not a scrap of gratitude for it. Soft. Far too soft. If you gave me a nuke, I'd fly the son of a b***h over there and drop it myself.

If you feel pity for the Palestinians, you'd better thank God I'm not over there running the Israeli government because I'd give you something to feel pity for them over in a god damn heartbeat. The primary reason I favor Livni over Netanyahu is that the only thing that overshadows my loathing toward those damn cave-semites is my hatred for conservatives.



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30 May 2011, 4:28 pm

Holy s**t! And my first impression reading your post was that you were yourself a conservative!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Inuyasha
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30 May 2011, 5:14 pm

@ WilliamWDelaney
Not all Palestinians are that way, just the ones that happen to be controlling their Government, are the ones that are involved with the terror groups or are looking the other way.



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31 May 2011, 12:10 am

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok why is it that a lot of people seem to think as an american you are obligated to support Israel?
Because the Pals are a bunch of lousy, lazy, untrustworthy bastards, compulsive liars, deceitful vermin and hypocritical jerk-offs that we'd just as soon bomb as look at. They are disgusting, asinine people, and the concept of letting those useless bastards overrun Israel when the culture that happens to be there now has done a reasonable job of doing something productive with themselves makes us want to toss up everything we've eaten in the past twelve weeks.

The Palestinians are a bunch of bomb-building cave-semites (or they would be building bombs if they had enough god damn sense among their whole f***ing ethnicity to put one together), less than medieval in their culture and totally unlikely to ever go anywhere or accomplish anything with themselves whatsoever. They don't have a future, and they are not entitled for us to give a crap about them whatsoever. Quite frankly, I wouldn't feel concerned over the bastards if the Jews actually were gassing the f****.

To tell you the truth, I think the Jews are too f***ing soft on the idiot dickheads, and I would just as soon the Israeli government carpet-bomb the whole f***ing Gaza Strip until it glows in the f***ing dark because I'm about sick to the point that it makes me want to vomit of arguing with the stupid idiots who expect me to have sympathy for the self-destructive cave-semites. The Jews treat their sick and wounded and give them electricity for f***ing free and get not a scrap of gratitude for it. Soft. Far too soft. If you gave me a nuke, I'd fly the son of a b***h over there and drop it myself.

If you feel pity for the Palestinians, you'd better thank God I'm not over there running the Israeli government because I'd give you something to feel pity for them over in a god damn heartbeat. The primary reason I favor Livni over Netanyahu is that the only thing that overshadows my loathing toward those damn cave-semites is my hatred for conservatives.

1. you sound like a damn nazi
2. Do you think all Israelies are peace loving innocent people who just want to go about their daily lives without harming anyone else?
3. Do you seriously think all Palestinians are the way you described?
4. I am not an idiot dick head...