The Goths

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I was watching a documentory about The Goths and found their story very powerful and touching. I think it is a good model against imperialism and showing tyranny getting over thrown (if only for a while).

I was not taught about The Goths in school, and I wondered if that was just my school or if most schools dont cover it. Leading on from this I wondered if it was not covered as it showed a too anti imperialist theme.

Whats your opinion? Did you learn about The Goths thoroughly in school? Are they a good anti imperial model?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A8SH7FiMbI&feature=related[/youtube]

They started out small, they spread out, invaded a cracking empire, they set up their own regimes where they landed, they ruled like every other conquering group, they got absorbed or kicked out in turn, their last gasp being in the Crimea.

This is anti-imperialist?

I never saw them as anti-imperialist. They certainly conquered just like all the other barbarian tribes (though their cavalry does stand out). One they split, they created some interesting kingdoms.

Other than "Goth" being a current manner of dress, I had never before ever heard of them ...

... and I would suspect the USA considered itself a sufficient example of escape from tyranny and a trustworthy government so as to not believe it necessary or worthwhile to also teach about the Goths (as presented in that video).

Ah, that is not the slant of the documentory I saw, so either they have an agenda or the book/person you learned from did. Out of interest did you learn about them in school or by your own research?

lol

I thought it interesting how like the Sparticus story it was, and of course the bloke who did Sparticus was jailed for being a commie.

Well, they're interesting to say the least. If i recall correctly, the Wisigoths settled near/in Spain, no? I think the Ostrogoths and a bunch of other tribes settled somewhere near current Germany... <.< (Gah, i'd better check a history book...)

I studied the barbarian invasions (now called 'the migration period'... how PC) in undergrad. Very interesting. The Goths did not really have a choice but to attack Rome, they were always under pressure to move west. The documentary describes the Goths as 'peaceful', not really, they had been at war for centuries. The discussion of their development is still underway. The traditional view is that they migrated from skagerak in the North. Contemporary scholarship prefers the view that they emerged from the Dacian frontier or from the east. Either way, they made a nuisance of themselves to the Romans from 238 onwards. They had their noses bloodied by Claudius II after invading the Empire and then reemerged later on. So no, I don't see them as anti-imperialist. Rather I view them as innovative survivors who lasted much longer than other Germain tribes in the same conditions.

ok, thats very interesting. Do you think the history channel has an agenda to portray it otherwise? Are they known for being socialist or anything?

In 488, the Roman Emperor asked the Ostrogoths to leave the lands where they were staying near the Danube and get rid of the troublesome military leader who took over Italy, Odoacer, the one who toppled the last emperor of the west and sent the insignias to the Roman capital of Constantinople in 476. After a nice arrangement between the Roman Emperor and the Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great, the deal started to collapse so Emperor Justinian sent an army in 534 into Italy to get rid of the Ostrogoths. That really wrecked Italy. Still, as a result Rome was back under Roman rule until 774.

A problem with the northern / scandinavian origin idea is the language . The Gothic is clearly, even allowing for dates, a third branch with West Germanic and Nordic, not all that close to either. If they were in fact side by side, one might expect a better link with one or tother.

They are trying to tell an interesting story. The actual history is longer and more interesting in my view. If you want good anti-imperialism study the Scots or the Irish. If you are looking for anti-imperialism during Roman times, study Judea.

I in fact have watched the History Channel documentary on the Goths. While I never quite saw it as anti-imperialist, it certainly showed the Goths in a more sympathetic light than a lot of other sources had. For the time period discussed, the Goths were shown to have been more victims than perpetrators - having been driven from their homes by the far more savage Huns, only to be taken advantage of and robbed mercilessly by the so-called civilized Romans. Their uprising against the Roman emperor Valens was obviously justifiable.
To be sure, there were worst examples of peoples who had interacted with the Romans.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Not just Judea. Brave men (and women, too) had shed their blood for the sake of resisting Roman imperialism, or to win back their liberty from the invaders north of the alps. In some cases, the local people would be successful, as in Germany, where three legions were utterly annihilated by the Germanic tribal leader, Arminius in 9 A.D. Most other cases, such as in Gaul, where the people were led by men such as Ambiorix or Vercingetorix, or in Britain, where leaders like the Celtic queen Boudicca fought for freedom, Roman victory was accompanied by war crimes and genocide. But regardless of whether Europe's tribal peoples had won or lost, their struggles were genuinely fought against imperialism.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The Goths were savages who could not govern the conquered territories.
Its history is a succession of regicide, chaos and civil war.



Yes.



No. The Goths failed trying to rule as the Romans.

Actually, the Ostrogoths in Italy had done well under the leadership of Theodoric the Great, but his successors had been unable to grasp his genius at kingship or as military leaders when they were finally vanquished by the Byzantines (Eastern Roman Empire). Whereas the Visigoths of Spain had in fact established a functional kingdom till they were overrun by the Muslim Moors in the 7th century. Even so, the Spanish proudly look to the Goths as one of the primary civilizations that had established their nation.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer