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Philologos
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05 Jun 2011, 9:00 am

I have a few minutes, this is as good a time as any to start this.

Certain people feel strongly [this is collapsing several people most of whom nobody here has ever met, so do not feel pointed at unless you are specifically mentioned]:

A. Only trained, certified, professional musicians and artists should produce art and music. Others should keep still even in the privacy of their own home.

B. The opinion of an educated person with a degree outweighs anything said by someone who, like Jesus, has never studied.

C. The opinion of a collective is more trustworthy than that of any individual.

I could expand this list - I have dealt with several such, and there are lots more points and corollaries, but we will keep it so far as in us lies short and sweet.

I for one - pretty obviously by now - disagree with all three propositions.

1. If you enjoy making music and art, go to it. You do not have to be commercial, you do not have to be good, put your soul into it and have fun. After a while you will be better than you know.

2. Formal education is far too often indoctrination in wrong beliefs [that was for ruveyn]. An amateur who has put in some original thought may come closer to the truth - as witness a major event in my father's career, where a rank amateur beat out all the experts, him included. And he is not dumb.

3. Truth is not democratic. A fact does not become so because lots of people believe it. It is not falsified by having only one person enunciating it. Most of anything like progress in science starts with one person disagreeing with the collective.

------------

So. That is me. AG has repeatedly said where he stands on this. Others?



dionysian
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05 Jun 2011, 9:19 am

Philologos wrote:
I for one - pretty obviously by now - disagree with all three propositions.

I would take this stance, as well.


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Sand
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05 Jun 2011, 9:24 am

I have never heard anybody rational demand formal education from artists and musicians. You are trying to start an empty quarrel.



dionysian
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05 Jun 2011, 9:26 am

Sand wrote:
I have never heard anybody rational demand formal education from artists and musicians. You are trying to start an empty quarrel.

Unless you extend your definition of art to encompass things like philosophy, politics, and religion....


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dionysian
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05 Jun 2011, 9:30 am

dionysian wrote:
Sand wrote:
I have never heard anybody rational demand formal education from artists and musicians. You are trying to start an empty quarrel.

Unless you extend your definition of art to encompass things like philosophy, politics, and religion....

For example, Wikipedia says:

Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect.

AG and others fervently demand formal education from anybody engaging in such activities, often disparaging those who they perceive as lacking credentials.


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Philologos
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05 Jun 2011, 9:33 am

Sand wrote:
I have never heard anybody rational demand formal education from artists and musicians. You are trying to start an empty quarrel.


I interrupt my boycott of you to point out that if you stopped talking about idiocy and opened your eyes you might hear something.

YOU may never have heard that expressed. I have. The person from whom I heard it the most [it was not unique] was limited of outlook but as rational as most here and more than some. More than you, I dare say.

That IS in fact a view that is in circulation in various parts of the culture. I have been rebuked and heasrd others rebuked for daring to make music without having formal instruction and certification.

Liar yourself.



jrjones9933
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05 Jun 2011, 9:39 am

Philologos wrote:
Only trained, certified, professional musicians and artists should produce art and music. Others should keep still even in the privacy of their own home.


I agree with you on all three, but I find this attitude particularly galling. I blame Simon Cowell.


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Philologos
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05 Jun 2011, 9:46 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Only trained, certified, professional musicians and artists should produce art and music. Others should keep still even in the privacy of their own home.


I agree with you on all three, but I find this attitude particularly galling. I blame Simon Cowell.


Had to look him up. I am only familiar - to the extent I am familiar - with the American copy.

There WAS a time when people sat at home around the fire, not the video, and played what instruments they had and sang with what voices they had and embroidered or painted or whittled or told stories.

And some were better than others and got reputations in the community, but pretty much everybody performed as much or as little as was comfortable, and nobody sneered except the jerky big brother. IThat would have been me].



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05 Jun 2011, 10:23 am

A. False.
B. Most of the times, informed opinions are 100 times more relevant and correct than uninformed ones. If a self-taught guy has an opinion, he has to explain and justify it correctly. If he cannot do that , then he taught himself incorrectly.
C. The collective is almost never right. But that does not mean a loonies is right just because he thinks different than the collective. Both Hitler and Einstein had opinions very different to the collective, that does not mean they were right.


dionysian wrote:
Sand wrote:
I have never heard anybody rational demand formal education from artists and musicians. You are trying to start an empty quarrel.

Unless you extend your definition of art to encompass things like philosophy, politics, and religion....
... which would be wrong.


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dionysian
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05 Jun 2011, 10:35 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
... which would be wrong.

Says you. Luckily we have many definitions for the word that would seem to disagree with you.


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dionysian
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05 Jun 2011, 10:44 am

http://www.google.com/dictionary?langpair=en|en&q=art&hl=en&aq=f

Words.


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phil777
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05 Jun 2011, 10:48 am

Vex, i think there's plenty of evidence around to show that art has often played a part in religion and politics (i mean, it does serve), philosophy is a different matter though...



ruveyn
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05 Jun 2011, 1:45 pm

Philologos wrote:
I have a few minutes, this is as good a time as any to start this.

Certain people feel strongly [this is collapsing several people most of whom nobody here has ever met, so do not feel pointed at unless you are specifically mentioned]:

A. Only trained, certified, professional musicians and artists should produce art and music. Others should keep still even in the privacy of their own home.



Let the market place be the judge of who is a good musician.

Prior certification is a broad avenue to tyranny and corruption.

ruveyn



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05 Jun 2011, 1:47 pm

Philologos wrote:

C. The opinion of a collective is more trustworthy than that of any individual.



That is exactly what the Church management told Galileo.

Your judgement leaves a great deal to be desired.

ruveyn



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05 Jun 2011, 2:38 pm

Quote:
A. Only trained, certified, professional musicians and artists should produce art and music. Others should keep still even in the privacy of their own home.


Certification is BS a lot of the time. I’m certified in things that I’m nearly clueless about just because I attended the classes and retained just enough knowledge on the subject to pass tests. This isn’t just me this is widespread. The only time a cert is worth much is when that individual does related work on a continuing basis or it is there personal interest or at least part of it.
My employer boasts about and has slogans about its certifications yet we don’t do much more than pay lip service to them in practice. This also is widespread.

Getting back to music and art, though. I pretty go along with what ruveyn said about letting the market be the judge because that is the acid test.
Music and art that can stand the test of time and can still be widely admired (and bought) for decades or centuries IS a success regardless of the credentials of the artist.

Quote:
B. The opinion of an educated person with a degree outweighs anything said by someone who, like Jesus, has never studied.

Kind of like “A” in a way. Too often the products of fertile and intelligent minds are casually cast aside pretty much because some university didn’t get any tuition money from those individuals. A good idea is a good idea regardless of the source and it is a shame to let them go to waste.

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C. The opinion of a collective is more trustworthy than that of any individual.

Depends on the circumstances but no, the opinion of the collective is not always trustworthy. Too many factors to take into account including the herd mentality.