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zer0netgain
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06 Oct 2011, 9:06 am

number5 wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Zeno wrote:
In the mean time, the protests against Wall Street and corporate greed gathers strength.

It only takes a spark,
to get a fire going.


Obama hopes to trigger a "worker's revolt" in America. This is the "hope and change" he was planning all along. A push to convert America over to Marxism.

Worked real well for the Soviet Union and most every other nation that tried it out. :roll:


Nonsense. These are not Obama supporters. This fight is about corruption. Today they're protesting in DC. This is not left vs. right.


Look at what they are demanding. Look at what they are ignoring (which is just as much to blame as what they are attacking). Look at who is pouring money into these protests and who is trying to organize and exploit them.

MARXISM. That's the game plan.

Again. The protesters are, by and large, "useful idiots" to be used to further someone else's agenda.

The problem with humans is that IQ/intelligence decreases as the number in the group increases.



Zeno
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06 Oct 2011, 6:49 pm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... le2193207/

Most major American newspapers failed to mention that Obama has come out on the side of the "useful idiots" who want to spread their message that Wall Street is corrupt and corporations are greedy. So we have to rely on Canadians to tell us what is happening in the US of A. It is always amusing to watch Obama beat up on the financial system because it is very apparent that he does not understand how it works. The guy just does not have any business sense or financial savvy whatsoever. How can Obama justify his view that the new debit card fees is "not good practice" and "not necessarily fair to consumers"? Anyone who understands anything about banking knows that the new fees on debit cards are necessary if American banks are to be restored to health. If banks are not allowed to make money then eventually they will have to be bailed out again, and again, and again. So what does Obama want? A sound financial system or freebies for everyone?



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07 Oct 2011, 11:36 am

I think it is difficult to understand the causes of the current social and economic upheaval because there are so many of them. There is just SO MUCH corruption/greed/stupidity/exploitation. That is why the Occupy Wall Street movement does not seem to have a clear goal or purpose. There is no one problem which, if we addressed it, would return to Americans the sense of social safety and economic stability enjoyed by the previous generation.



ruveyn
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07 Oct 2011, 11:52 am

YippySkippy wrote:
I think it is difficult to understand the causes of the current social and economic upheaval because there are so many of them. There is just SO MUCH corruption/greed/stupidity/exploitation. That is why the Occupy Wall Street movement does not seem to have a clear goal or purpose. There is no one problem which, if we addressed it, would return to Americans the sense of social safety and economic stability enjoyed by the previous generation.


We are now occupying a Hole in the Ground that we have dug for ourselves for nearly a hundred years. Perhaps even longer. The American belief in the Money Tree and the Hard Rock Candy Mountain is or shortly will be the death of us.

The game was up with the Great Depression. We bought ourselves an extra thirty or forty years as a result of WW2. And now reality it reasserting itself once again. I hope that our politicians do not think a whiz bang war is the way out of our troubles.

ruveyn



Zeno
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07 Oct 2011, 6:27 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
I think it is difficult to understand the causes of the current social and economic upheaval because there are so many of them. There is just SO MUCH corruption/greed/stupidity/exploitation. That is why the Occupy Wall Street movement does not seem to have a clear goal or purpose. There is no one problem which, if we addressed it, would return to Americans the sense of social safety and economic stability enjoyed by the previous generation.


There are probably very few countries that can claim to have less "corruption/greed/stupidity/exploitation" than the United States. The root cause of America’s problems is not a dysfunctional government or rapacious corporations, it is the insatiable demands of a people who have grown accustomed to wanting more and getting what they want. In this sense, America is very much like Rome.

Overwhelming success and successive government who have been only too eager to pander to public demands for a better and easier life have made the American people soft. There used to be a time when Americans were the most prolific savers in the world. They combined a strong work ethic with disciplined consumption habits and marched from the ashes of the American civil war to become the world’s preeminent power. But success always has a way of destroying itself. Americans today expect a wage that is well above what the market can tolerate and will only accept work that they deem respectable. They consume so voraciously that they save nothing.

If you want to know what is rotten about America, understand that it is the people who are spoilt. This is also the reason why there will be riots.



Zeno
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08 Oct 2011, 7:14 pm

There are a lot of people who have made a public spectacle of how much they enjoy America's present misery. Hugo Chavez is the latest to add his mocking voice in support of the Occupy Wall Street movement. How can America's enemies not rejoice when Americans start attacking the very institutions that perpetuate American wealth and power?

The view of these spoiled brats is that if there is nothing for them then there is nothing for anyone else. Like the criminal protestors in Greece, who have caused billions of euros of economic damage with their never ending efforts to destabilize what they regard as the corrupt Greek state at a time when Greece desperately needs to work together to get through a very difficult financial crisis, the movement that is now gathering to protest corporate greed and Wall Street corruption is likely to do a tremendous amount of damage to the American economy. All in the name of building a better world where people who do things like pursue an MFA in performing arts would not need to pay back their student loans or where everyone can get whatever they want from the bank and never have to pay for it. There used to be a time when Americans would have been scandalized by even the thought of not paying back their debts. What happened to these people? Where are they now? Are there any Americans left?



Zeno
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08 Oct 2011, 7:32 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/pos ... _blog.html

They get bolder and bolder and the response gets tougher and tougher. One can only hope that winter will drive these brats back home where they can watch reruns of the Simpsons in the cozy comfort of their parents den.



Vexcalibur
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08 Oct 2011, 8:12 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Look at what they are demanding. Look at what they are ignoring (which is just as much to blame as what they are attacking). Look at who is pouring money into these protests and who is trying to organize and exploit them.

MARXISM. That's the game plan.

Again. The protesters are, by and large, "useful idiots" to be used to further someone else's agenda.

The problem with humans is that IQ/intelligence decreases as the number in the group increases.


You man are hilarious. Would read again.



Zeno wrote:
One can only hope that winter will drive these brats back home where they can watch reruns of the Simpsons in the cozy comfort of their parents den.
What has that poor straw person done to you that you keep bashing it? Have some mercy for god's sake.


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Zeno
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09 Oct 2011, 1:24 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
What has that poor straw person done to you that you keep bashing it? Have some mercy for god's sake.


Are you saying that I have issues? :D

I have watched as the United States lurched from one mistake to another. Ever since the collapse of Lehman Brothers, America appears to have lost its bearings. The U.S. government bailed out the banks only to elect Barack Obama who thought it was his mission in life to attack the banking elite. The Obama administration then refused to acknowledge reality and insisted that the downturn was only temporary. Hence, paying people princely sums in unemployment benefits became justified. Most people were grateful for the money and believed that if they waited the downturn out that their prospects would improve as the economy recovered. Not a few probably turned down job offers in the early months of being unemployed because they did not want to accept a lower wage. But as months turned into years and the economy did not recover, the false sense of security that unemployment benefits engendered has turned out to be one of the most damaging aspects of Barack Obama's attempts at a feel good policy. Amazingly, Obama has proposed extending unemployment benefits again in his new jobs bill.

But the beginning of the decline goes further back than that. I would actually trace it to the labor unrest of the 1970s which was followed fatally by liberalization in the 1980s that then culminated in two massive asset bubbles. Or perhaps it was the counter culture movement in the 1960s that destroyed America's sense of discipline and ushered in an era where anything that feels good for the moment must be right regardless of future consequences. How else do you explain that a country already bankrupted by massive contingent liabilities in open ended defined benefits national pension and healthcare programs can go on pretending that nothing is amiss? Wars are fought on money borrowed from the Chinese who now have an effective veto on major policy decisions that America makes. Yet no one seems to ask where the rugged spirit of self reliance that built the American republic has gone. They prefer instead to blame the bankers who are the faces and the voices that con and lie for America's sake.



Zeno
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09 Oct 2011, 6:19 pm

And now the Iranians have come out in support of Occupy Wall Street. Way to go!



ruveyn
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09 Oct 2011, 8:04 pm

Zeno wrote:
And now the Iranians have come out in support of Occupy Wall Street. Way to go!


A sure fire sign that OWS is no damned good.

ruveyn



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09 Oct 2011, 10:26 pm

Zeno wrote:
Self interest and greed may not be exactly the same, but they have much in common and often the two overlap. One need not be greedy to harm others. Acting in your self interest could very well end up hurting other people. Take for example the case I brought up about eating more to ensure you get enough nutrition. It is in your self interest to ensure that you get enough food to survive. But if in so doing you deprive others of food, then you would clearly be hurting them.

If I eat enough food for myself how is that depriving someone else of food? that is not directly related.....putting profit for instance above all other things and being willing to hurt others to get what you want is what greed involves self instrest is more about taking care of your needs which does not usually have to cause harm to others.

Capitalism is a direct expression of freedom and the practice of capitalism makes the free world possible. The basic tenet of capitalism is choice. People have the right to choose and there is a need for choices to be made. Having made these choices, you either bear the consequences of your mistakes or else reap the benefits of your wisdom. But for any choice to be meaningful, we must have some minimum level of comfort. The starving man for instance cannot be said to make good choices because he will choose to eat regardless of the consequences. Because we enjoy the fruits of our labor, capitalist societies tend to be filled with people who are motivated to work; thus creating the very conditions of sufficiency that make makes it possible to make meaningful choices.

Capitalism is an economic system its not a direct representation of freedom, its an economic system that allows the greedy and powerful people to run things.......pure capitalism with no regulations is actually quite horrible. So maybe Capitalism is not the only way after all. And why should I be motivated to work in this sick society? its pointless.

Even though we may claim to be better than others in that we really just want enough for ourselves and not more, the truth is that what we may regard as simply enough can actually represent excessive luxury for others. Take the iPhone situation for example. Less than 1% of the Chinese workers who work throughout the value chain to help produce iPhones can ever hope to own one of these modern marvels. In fact, many people who have studied how iPhones are produced come away literally despairing how incredibly unfair it is that these workers can never hope to own a machine they work so hard every day to produce.


And I am not the type of indivudal who considers an iphone to be a nessisary survival item....when I say I want to be able to have what I need to survive and the means to enjoy myself that is what I mean not that I need all of todays latest technology, 5 cars, and a big house.



Zeno
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10 Oct 2011, 12:38 am

The central dilemma in all free societies is that everyone’s freedom necessarily impinges on that of others. Sometimes the infringement is a minor irritation that can be endured and at other times the trespass is such that freedom in effect assaults itself. An example of how the freedom enjoyed by some can become an abomination to the very notion of freedom was the institution of slavery in the Antebellum South. Owning slaves allowed plantation owners to enjoy a life that was otherwise out of reach and thus greatly enhanced their freedom. It was a great deal for the slave owners but obviously not a very satisfactory arrangement for the slaves or for other people who did not or who could not own slaves because it is almost impossible to compete with people who use slave labor.

However, even though the slaves were emancipated and allowed to do as they pleased, it did not mean that their new found freedom would translate into the same effects as that of their White brethren. Illiteracy and lack of education meant that although freed, many former slaves would have little choice but to continue working the fields; except that instead of getting room and board, they received wages. Here is another idea you should consider: the same freedoms given to different people will not always translate into the same effects.

But let us get back to the original argument on the competitive nature of freedom. The basis for saying that your freedom impinges on that of others arises from the scarcity of resources. If for instance you eat an apple then that apple which you have consumed is no longer available to others. At any one time there are limited apples in the world and therefore because you exercised your freedom everyone else finds that their options are reduced. There is after all one less in the world while the number of people in the world remains the same (we are assuming that the apple is consumed instantaneously and that no one is born or dies in that instant). The same simple analysis can be applied to just about any human activity you care to mention. Because anything that we do necessarily restricts what others can do, freedom is competitive by default.



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10 Oct 2011, 12:44 am

Zeno wrote:
The central dilemma in all free societies is that everyone’s freedom necessarily impinges on that of others. Sometimes the infringement is a minor irritation that can be endured and at other times the trespass is such that freedom in effect assaults itself. An example of how the freedom enjoyed by some can become an abomination to the very notion of freedom was the institution of slavery in the Antebellum South. Owning slaves allowed plantation owners to enjoy a life that was otherwise out of reach and thus greatly enhanced their freedom. It was a great deal for the slave owners but obviously not a very satisfactory arrangement for the slaves or for other people who did not or who could not own slaves because it is almost impossible to compete with people who use slave labor.

However, even though the slaves were emancipated and allowed to do as they pleased, it did not mean that their new found freedom would translate into the same effects as that of their White brethren. Illiteracy and lack of education meant that although freed, many former slaves would have little choice but to continue working the fields; except that instead of getting room and board, they received wages. Here is another idea you should consider: the same freedoms given to different people will not always translate into the same effects.

But let us get back to the original argument on the competitive nature of freedom. The basis for saying that your freedom impinges on that of others arises from the scarcity of resources. If for instance you eat an apple then that apple which you have consumed is no longer available to others. At any one time there are limited apples in the world and therefore because you exercised your freedom everyone else finds that their options are reduced. There is after all one less in the world while the number of people in the world remains the same (we are assuming that the apple is consumed instantaneously and that no one is born or dies in that instant). The same simple analysis can be applied to just about any human activity you care to mention. Because anything that we do necessarily restricts what others can do, freedom is competitive by default.


So freedom has to= someone somewhere getting opressed basically?



Zeno
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10 Oct 2011, 8:43 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
So freedom has to= someone somewhere getting opressed basically?


It is precisely such simple mindedness that has led to the Occupy Wall Street protests and it is such thoughtlessness that will lead to social dislocation in the United States. The collective pursuit of life, liberty and happiness necessarily leads to some degree of inequality for the things which you enjoy others cannot have. But inequality is not oppression. Just because others have more does not mean that the rest have been deprived of their rights.



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10 Oct 2011, 1:01 pm

Zeno wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
So freedom has to= someone somewhere getting opressed basically?


It is precisely such simple mindedness that has led to the Occupy Wall Street protests and it is such thoughtlessness that will lead to social dislocation in the United States. The collective pursuit of life, liberty and happiness necessarily leads to some degree of inequality for the things which you enjoy others cannot have. But inequality is not oppression. Just because others have more does not mean that the rest have been deprived of their rights.


I am not arguing against inequality, that will always exist.........what I am concerned with is the degree to which it exists in this country. inequality is one thing......1% owning 90% of the wealth while those on the bottom or those now reaching the bottom because of how screwed up our economic system are just supposed to go get a job and make it in life. Well what jobs? in case you don't know there is a shortage at least of good paying jobs. Minimum wage hardly cuts it and those who cannot work are even more screwed especially if the government decides to start cutting all the welfare programs.

As I have said I don't support everything these wall street protesters do......but I do like what they are doing, its about time people actually went out and expressed their opinions out on the streets at least it shows people aren't exactly happy with what is going on in this country. And well I do not think they are opposed to freedom, that seems like a rather ridiculous notion.....it seems they are more opposed to huge corporations having the freedom to do whatever the hell they want regardless of how it affects the citizens....also all the influence these corporations have on politics.......who do you think funds the politicians?