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TheKing
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25 Jan 2012, 1:27 pm

In my Government class today we brought up the Roman Empire and what led to its collapse and we were drawing similarities between the USA and the Roman Empire, they spread themselves too thin and got in business that wasnt theirs and they were very corrupt those are just some examples of what we discussed, what do you think about the topic?


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iamnotaparakeet
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25 Jan 2012, 1:40 pm

The Romans kicked butt, so awesome. And only the Western Empire declined in the 5th century AD due to the poor economic situation, leaving the Church of that day practically free of the State which had been ruling over it, and missionaries spread out with the Gospel and with classical education. The Eastern Roman Empire however lasted until the 15th century and due to the ingenuity of an immigrant named Callinicus of Heliopolis, they had flamethrowers and burned the enemy ships and halted invading armies from the middle east from conquering Europe by the sword. The Eastern Roman Empire thus provided stability for the rest of Europe on the east and the Franks held back the Moors on the west until the Spanish could reconquer their own lands back. But either way, you could compare America to lots of different countries throughout history depending on what you're trying to emphasize.



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25 Jan 2012, 1:41 pm

TheKing wrote:
In my Government class today we brought up the Roman Empire and what led to its collapse and we were drawing similarities between the USA and the Roman Empire, they spread themselves too thin and got in business that wasnt theirs and they were very corrupt those are just some examples of what we discussed, what do you think about the topic?
An interesting comparison that I have heard on and off since I was a young teenager. Though I assure you that I will come back to this topic, as for now, all I have to say is that the Chinese declined but never collapsed and are rapidly rising today. Also, to be brief (I have class at college soon, BTW) I think Rome fell mainly because of its slavery and adoption of Christianity, though I am by no means the best person to ask on the matter.


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25 Jan 2012, 3:14 pm

Another important parallel is the rise of Christianity as a political force. Christianity made the Romans wimps and helped crush the spirit of skepticism they inherited from the Greeks. Now in the US Christianity is an extremely potent political force that likewise wants to control the way people think


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25 Jan 2012, 3:16 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Another important parallel is the rise of Christianity as a political force. Christianity made the Romans wimps and helped crush the spirit of skepticism they inherited from the Greeks. Now in the US Christianity is an extremely potent political force that likewise wants to control the way people think


People are a bit more educated this time around however.


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25 Jan 2012, 3:19 pm

abacacus wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Another important parallel is the rise of Christianity as a political force. Christianity made the Romans wimps and helped crush the spirit of skepticism they inherited from the Greeks. Now in the US Christianity is an extremely potent political force that likewise wants to control the way people think


People are a bit more educated this time around however.


Ignorance is considered a virtue amongst the New Right


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ruveyn
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25 Jan 2012, 3:23 pm

The Roman Empire in its prime made the U.S. look like pansies and wusses. The Romans, in their day, kicked a**. During the late days of the Roman Republic the Romans utterly destroyed Carthage in the Third Punic War. Of the Romans it was said: They make a Desolation and call it Peace.

The Romans did not expected to be loved. They preferred to be Feared. And they were. Whereas the U.S. wants the world to love us for the Good we do.

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25 Jan 2012, 3:28 pm

abacacus wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Another important parallel is the rise of Christianity as a political force. Christianity made the Romans wimps and helped crush the spirit of skepticism they inherited from the Greeks. Now in the US Christianity is an extremely potent political force that likewise wants to control the way people think
People are a bit more educated this time around however.

Never confuse mere literacy with education. Just because ninety-nine-point-whatever of a modern population can read, that does not mean that they're actually learning anything, especially with religion having such a great deal of influence over what is taught in public schools.



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25 Jan 2012, 3:31 pm

I would say ( as someone with a History degree, and history was/is my obsessive aspergian quality) that the collapse of the roman empire was largely a result of a variety of factors such as: institutional weakness of govt..by 300's-500s you had very little top stability with emperors coming and going in a matter of years as opposed to decades in previous centuries. You had the non-expansion of the empire ( when the early roman state was built on unconscience imperialism...see the 3 carthigian wars, the wars to take macedonia, and than mithradiatic wars. Wars often meant profit for legions, and emperors alike. You had the devaluation of the roman currency which caused runaway inflation. You than had the movements of the Germanic tribes along the border regions which changed the cultural, ethnic, and military strength of the roman state. I think our " decline" is more similar to the British than the Romans.



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25 Jan 2012, 3:43 pm

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
I would say ( as someone with a History degree, and history was/is my obsessive aspergian quality) that the collapse of the roman empire was largely a result of a variety of factors such as: institutional weakness of govt..by 300's-500s you had very little top stability with emperors coming and going in a matter of years as opposed to decades in previous centuries. You had the non-expansion of the empire ( when the early roman state was built on unconscience imperialism...see the 3 carthigian wars, the wars to take macedonia, and than mithradiatic wars. Wars often meant profit for legions, and emperors alike. You had the devaluation of the roman currency which caused runaway inflation. You than had the movements of the Germanic tribes along the border regions which changed the cultural, ethnic, and military strength of the roman state. I think our " decline" is more similar to the British than the Romans.

"Expand or Die", eh? That makes sense.

This may be too simplistic, but when criminal gangs have taken all that there is to steal in one neighborhood, the only thing left to do is take over another neighborhood and loot it, as well. Pretty soon, the gang-members are spread out so thin that they can no longer effectively and efficiently loot any new neighborhood, or even the old ones that they've already looted. At that point, either the gang-members each form their own localized gangs (that no longer answer to the Big Boss), or the entire gang network simply collapses under its own weight.



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25 Jan 2012, 3:59 pm

Fnord wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
I would say ( as someone with a History degree, and history was/is my obsessive aspergian quality) that the collapse of the roman empire was largely a result of a variety of factors such as: institutional weakness of govt..by 300's-500s you had very little top stability with emperors coming and going in a matter of years as opposed to decades in previous centuries. You had the non-expansion of the empire ( when the early roman state was built on unconscience imperialism...see the 3 carthigian wars, the wars to take macedonia, and than mithradiatic wars. Wars often meant profit for legions, and emperors alike. You had the devaluation of the roman currency which caused runaway inflation. You than had the movements of the Germanic tribes along the border regions which changed the cultural, ethnic, and military strength of the roman state. I think our " decline" is more similar to the British than the Romans.

"Expand or Die", eh? That makes sense.

This may be too simplistic, but when criminal gangs have taken all that there is to steal in one neighborhood, the only thing left to do is take over another neighborhood and loot it, as well. Pretty soon, the gang-members are spread out so thin that they can no longer effectively and efficiently loot any new neighborhood, or even the old ones that they've already looted. At that point, either the gang-members each form their own localized gangs (that no longer answer to the Big Boss), or the entire gang network simply collapses under its own weight.


From the 500s bce-200s ce, the Roman republic and than empire was formed by absorbing new city-states and than nationalities and giving them citizenship..this provided manpower, resources, territorial depth. A lot of wars the Romans went into only for small objectives like " freeing city-states from tyranny" but it dragged them into larger conflicts because they were running up against the interests of neighboring regional powers like the Carthiginians and the Selecuid/Antigonus Greeks of the Near East.



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25 Jan 2012, 4:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
I would say ( as someone with a History degree, and history was/is my obsessive aspergian quality) that the collapse of the roman empire was largely a result of a variety of factors such as: institutional weakness of govt..by 300's-500s you had very little top stability with emperors coming and going in a matter of years as opposed to decades in previous centuries. You had the non-expansion of the empire ( when the early roman state was built on unconscience imperialism...see the 3 carthigian wars, the wars to take macedonia, and than mithradiatic wars. Wars often meant profit for legions, and emperors alike. You had the devaluation of the roman currency which caused runaway inflation. You than had the movements of the Germanic tribes along the border regions which changed the cultural, ethnic, and military strength of the roman state. I think our " decline" is more similar to the British than the Romans.

"Expand or Die", eh? That makes sense.

This may be too simplistic, but when criminal gangs have taken all that there is to steal in one neighborhood, the only thing left to do is take over another neighborhood and loot it, as well. Pretty soon, the gang-members are spread out so thin that they can no longer effectively and efficiently loot any new neighborhood, or even the old ones that they've already looted. At that point, either the gang-members each form their own localized gangs (that no longer answer to the Big Boss), or the entire gang network simply collapses under its own weight.


in reality it is more dynamic,

more like every region has a dynamic capacity for crime, dependant on the buildup over a set period of relative peace and the overall economic turnaround of an area.
they would move in with force and momentum to start with, a large array of robberies or similar and when the intial bubble of easy loot has been drained they deem it more profitable to find a new area where there is new easy loot instead of engaging the now entrenched people over their relatively small economic turnaround (relatively small is mean more as an effort vs. reward than actual size)

some areas around denmark has been hit quite badly by recurring thefts, then there will be a cooldown period of 6 months or so and then they try to get some more, my father had to install alarms and cameras in his driveway.


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25 Jan 2012, 4:13 pm

Does anyone expect to see the USA split anytime soon? It would be interesting.



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25 Jan 2012, 4:19 pm

When we think of the fall of Rome, we think of the collapse of the Western Empire, which had occurred because the Romans had divided their empire between the wealthier, self sustaining east, with long history of commerce and urban living, and the west, which was poorer, and was made up largely of agrarian tribal societies. The poor of the Roman west were over taxed by increasingly incompetent and corrupt leaders who showed less and less interest in the concerns of local people. And so, local leaders - which included local nobles, military leaders, and even Barbarian chiefs - by necessity became more self sufficient, and less dependent on the emperor. On top of that, when Barbarian refugees had pushed their way into imperial lands, the Roman emperors continued the fiction that these lands were still under their rule by maintaining after the fact that the Barbarians were holding those lands for Rome. Gradually, the Western Roman Empire got whittled down, and died with a whimper. The Eastern Empire in fact lasted to the fifteenth century, and gradually held on against the overwhelming weight of the Muslim world, which eventually overcame them.
Personally, I don't see many parallels between America and the Romans, save for if the Civil War had ended differently, and the South had become the poorer, corrupt, economically backward equivalent to the western empire.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



TheKing
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25 Jan 2012, 11:10 pm

Burzum wrote:
Does anyone expect to see the USA split anytime soon? It would be interesting.


in like 2010 Texas and several other states threatened to secede from the Union, Governor Rick Perry said DC needs to listen to the people before things get too far out of hand, the rate they are going rebellion isn't far away. i am very familiar with the militia movement and they have been preparing for years


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