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DaveB78
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15 Sep 2006, 10:31 am

This is a link to a time line for Enlightenment thinking I urge you to read the accompaning commentary and essays...it is rationality at its finest. I suspect many noted in this timeline were like us...

http://www.belmont.edu/lockesmith/Histo ... eline.html



Last edited by DaveB78 on 15 Sep 2006, 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Therion
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15 Sep 2006, 11:00 am

Classical liberalism is not equal with logic, but is rather a logic which among other things employs both empiricism and rationalism to support specific interests, namely those of property owners.



DaveB78
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15 Sep 2006, 11:05 am

Yes, but it starts with self ownership the most basic of property rights....what could be more logical? Furthermore, what is more logical than empiricism and rationalism?



Therion
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15 Sep 2006, 11:28 am

Empiricism is logical, not rationalism. Rationalism and deduction is almost the basis of all intellectual sh*t.

A=A must be the highpoint of human stupidity.

Moreover, ownership is as abstract as "human rights". It is just an abstraction. Classical liberalism is as empty as any religion since it does'nt recognize that man is a specie of animals, which are coping together in societies in order to survive and give better opportunities to the offspring. Property rights has only been the superstructure for that as long as we've had a scarcity-based agricultural society. But today, we must recognise the fact that people needs to get basic needs satisfied. Humans are animals.



DaveB78
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15 Sep 2006, 1:02 pm

Perhaps Rational is a beter descriptor than logic. Man is a rational being.



larsenjw92286
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15 Sep 2006, 1:07 pm

I've heard of John Locke, but what exactly does this have to do with him?


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Therion
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15 Sep 2006, 1:09 pm

That could really be discussed.

Maybe the "ideal man" of the lawmakers, but the truth is that we are not wholly rational, and even if we all were rational, we would still need to have access to all information in order to make decisions. Machines are rational, and they should be. But people should not cut their hair and look for a job, but use the machines in order to liberate their creativity, their love and their passion. If we would strive to become fully rational, we would strive to repeat the behavior of machines, which is'nt liberating.

Moreover, ownership of resources [like land and means of production] are associated with scarcity. And during scarcity, someone would always be left in the outside, while during abundance, such rights are not longer necessary to safeguard our survival and well-being.



DaveB78
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15 Sep 2006, 1:23 pm

Man's rationality is based in self awareness and the awareness of others. Something machinces are incapapable of.

As to the issue of proprty rights, it must always start with self ownership...from that the idea of contracts, which leads to voluntary exchange of goods and services and as a result of this voluntary exchange scarities can be limited...readers digest version, but its all there among those listed in the timeline...for a quick primer on the economic aspects try "Economics in one Lesson" by Henry Hazzlit" ca.1947.



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15 Sep 2006, 1:30 pm

Man is rational being and to deny that is to deny the greatest prize of his humanity. Certainly the ways in which we maximize our utility seem irrational, however, they are acts rationally taken to reach a goal. Man does not need perfect information to make decisions, man needs sufficient information, perfect information as we all know does not exist, however, with enough information or the freedom to trade for information life continues on working. Man should strive to be rational and yet retain other human characteristics as well for if he doesn't do that then his life will not be good.

Ownership of resources is a necessity for a functioning economic system. People as can be noted seek their own interests, property rights give people incentive to use property for its most needed function, doing that is efficient and efficient use of resources creates wealth and greater abundance of goods. Scarcity is simply a part of life, as what we desire is always greater than what is necessarily available. Such rights are always necessary, for without safeguards for rights we lose our survival and well-being.



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15 Sep 2006, 1:31 pm

DaveB78 wrote:
As to the issue of proprty rights, it must always start with self ownership...from that the idea of contracts, which leads to voluntary exchange of goods and services and as a result of this voluntary exchange scarities can be limited...readers digest version, but its all there among those listed in the timeline...for a quick primer on the economic aspects try "Economics in one Lesson" by Henry Hazzlit" ca.1947.

That is a good book, it can be found on the internet for free too if one knows where to look.



Therion
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15 Sep 2006, 1:38 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Man is rational being and to deny that is to deny the greatest prize of his humanity. Certainly the ways in which we maximize our utility seem irrational, however, they are acts rationally taken to reach a goal. Man does not need perfect information to make decisions, man needs sufficient information, perfect information as we all know does not exist, however, with enough information or the freedom to trade for information life continues on working. Man should strive to be rational and yet retain other human characteristics as well for if he doesn't do that then his life will not be good.

Ownership of resources is a necessity for a functioning economic system. People as can be noted seek their own interests, property rights give people incentive to use property for its most needed function, doing that is efficient and efficient use of resources creates wealth and greater abundance of goods. Scarcity is simply a part of life, as what we desire is always greater than what is necessarily available. Such rights are always necessary, for without safeguards for rights we lose our survival and well-being.


1. Liberalism views man as an individual rational atome, instead of a biological entity. Rationality is defined as economics, but the abstract rationality which motivates this current system leads to severe environmental decay, because our current society is only seeking economic growth thus ignoring that Earth is a closed cycle system where resources are flowing though. We are marching right at disaster.

2. Property rights creates low load factors and waste in a system marked by abundance, which the current high energy system indeed is. We need a post-economic system, not an economic system. We need technocracy. http://spazz.mine.nu/cms



Awesomelyglorious
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15 Sep 2006, 2:05 pm

Liberalism may idealize man, however, human freedom isn't something to simply be discarded. Also, the environment is a part of the economy to a great extent and environmental damage is known as an externality and is valued as much it is felt by governments to be necessary. That we are marching off of a cliff is something a bit hard to see, and a bit too pessimistic for a creature as adaptable as ourselves. Earth's resources are limited, economic growth is unlimited however because it can be gained through the efficient use of resources.

Property rights based price systems allow for individuals to rationally economize and get what they want and they are the only effective system for getting things done as the economizing individuals themselves have a direct incentive to make things work. All the technocrats are really going to lead to is another form of unworkable fascism/socialism and a dark pit for humanity. We are in an economic system and we will always be in an economic system and we will always have a need to economize in order to maximize our gains.



DaveB78
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15 Sep 2006, 2:13 pm

What little I know about "technocracy" leads me to believe it is necessarily dependent on central planning and Hayek thouroughly debunked that notion in "The Road To Serfdom".



Therion
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15 Sep 2006, 2:21 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Liberalism may idealize man, however, human freedom isn't something to simply be discarded. Also, the environment is a part of the economy to a great extent and environmental damage is known as an externality and is valued as much it is felt by governments to be necessary. That we are marching off of a cliff is something a bit hard to see, and a bit too pessimistic for a creature as adaptable as ourselves. Earth's resources are limited, economic growth is unlimited however because it can be gained through the efficient use of resources.

Property rights based price systems allow for individuals to rationally economize and get what they want and they are the only effective system for getting things done as the economizing individuals themselves have a direct incentive to make things work. All the technocrats are really going to lead to is another form of unworkable fascism/socialism and a dark pit for humanity. We are in an economic system and we will always be in an economic system and we will always have a need to economize in order to maximize our gains.


Individual work is not necessary in the same way as for 200 years ago. Today, we have machines. We could distribute the resources available to everyone, recycle, and continue. Human work time could be reduced to a minimum, while we could adapt our production to the consumption levels through energy accounting. Of course, we do need much changes to do that, but that will create a more stable society with more availability to resources, and thus, less crime and less use of force [the state should be replaced with autonomous communes].

Why would we need central planning in consumption patterns when we have the internet? Individuals could still make choices, and the facilities will provide them with what they would want.



DaveB78
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15 Sep 2006, 2:28 pm

Who manages the buracracies? Who runs the distribution of goods and services and moreover what drives innovation if there is no greed motive or self interest? Frankly, it seems to be communism repackaged with technocrats replacing the oligarchs and machines replacing the workers and most folks just sitting on their butts.



Last edited by DaveB78 on 15 Sep 2006, 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.