Nazi Germany - The Blame Game.
Do you know what I'm sick of? I'm sick of people blaming Nazi Germany on stuff that doesn't make sense.
I'll start with Karl Popper. He blamed Nazi Germany on Plato's vison of a "Philosopher King" - a philosopher who is also a king. This does not make sense because pretty much everyone - at some point in their life - has thought, "maybe if we put this smart person in charge it will solve all the world's problems."
Next there's Ben Stein. He blames Nazi Germany on Darwin's theory of evolution. He asserts that the reason Nazis killed Jews is because of the "survival of the fittest" aspect of Darwin's theory. This does not make sense because people in Germany had been talking about killing the Jews for centuries. Martin Luther talked about killing the Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_jews_and_their_lies
But perhaps the most ridiculous idea for what caused Nazi Germany comes from Bertrand Russel. He blamed Nazi Germany on the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche. This notion is simply absurd. First of all there is no evidence that Hitler read Nietzsche. Second of all Nazism and Nietzsche's philosphy are completely different. Nietzsche wanted a world in which any strong-willed person could achieve political power. Under Nazism the Fuhrer opresses all the masses - strong-willed or not - and prevents anyone from achieving the wisdom nessasary to achieve political power by controlling the media and burning books. Also, Nietzsche hated nationalism, anti-Semitism and socialism.
The truth is that the closest thing to Nietzsche's philosphy that has a significant following is Objectivism. Nietzsche's living legacy is Objectivism, not Nazism.
So what did cause Nazi Germany? The answer is simple. Germany was treated too harshly after World War 1 (Treaty of Versailles ect.) and it had a long history of anti-Semitism. That's about it.
So what did we learn from Nazi Germany? We learned the same thing we learned when Seung-Hui Cho went on a rampage. If you bully a man enough he'll go nuts. If you bully a country enough it'll go nuts.
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So what did cause Nazi Germany? The answer is simple. Germany was treated too harshly after World War 1 (Treaty of Versailles ect.) and it had a long history of anti-Semitism. That's about it.
The injustice of the Treaty of Versailles may be promoted resentment in Germany but a combination of the world wide depression along with the financial hardship of repaying unjust indemnities made the middle class of Germany desperate. Which laid them open to a Man on Horseback.
However the anti-semitism endemic to Germany was no worse than that in France at the time of the Dreyfus Affair. The French never cooked up a scheme for killing the Jews in France. But Hitler and his buddies did that at the Wansee Conference in 1941. It only took 90 minutes. Hitler's anti-semitism went beyond the bounds of anti-semitism as it has existed in Europe for hundreds of years. The middle class burghers of Deutschland in their desperation voted the s.o.b. into office and within a few months be became the dictator of Germany.
If the great world-wide depression had not occurred when it did, Hitler's insanity might not have happened. Or perhaps the communists would have won. A German soviet was not beyond the bounds of imagination. If that had happened the Jews of Germany and Europe would not have done well either.
ruveyn
That, and perhaps you should recognize that while the German people were complicit for what was done as a nation, Adolf Hitler came in and was embraced for what eventually would follow. Absent his presence in the equation, I doubt a "Nazi Germany" would have rose to power.
There may be underlying sentiment, but it doesn't tend to congeal into something real until a powerful individual uses it to drive the people towards a goal...usually one of his own making.
There may be underlying sentiment, but it doesn't tend to congeal into something real until a powerful individual uses it to drive the people towards a goal...usually one of his own making.
That is what it takes. A Man on Horseback to lead the masses to their own destruction.
Here is an interesting thing. If Hitler had -stopped- with the inclusion of the Sudatenland into a Greater Reich and done no more he would have been hailed as the greatest statement German ever produced. But he could not stop. His madness and wickedness drove him onward.
Up to the Anschluss and the incorporation of the Sudatenland, plus recovery of territory from France, Germany undid the injustice of the Treaty of Versailles. Had the leaders of France been more temperate and had that horse's behind Woodrow Wilson been prudent, WW2 would never have happened.
ruveyn
I'll start with Karl Popper. He blamed Nazi Germany on Plato's vison of a "Philosopher King" - a philosopher who is also a king. This does not make sense because pretty much everyone - at some point in their life - has thought, "maybe if we put this smart person in charge it will solve all the world's problems."
Next there's Ben Stein. He blames Nazi Germany on Darwin's theory of evolution. He asserts that the reason Nazis killed Jews is because of the "survival of the fittest" aspect of Darwin's theory. This does not make sense because people in Germany had been talking about killing the Jews for centuries. Martin Luther talked about killing the Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_jews_and_their_lies
But perhaps the most ridiculous idea for what caused Nazi Germany comes from Bertrand Russel. He blamed Nazi Germany on the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche. This notion is simply absurd. First of all there is no evidence that Hitler read Nietzsche. Second of all Nazism and Nietzsche's philosphy are completely different. Nietzsche wanted a world in which any strong-willed person could achieve political power. Under Nazism the Fuhrer opresses all the masses - strong-willed or not - and prevents anyone from achieving the wisdom nessasary to achieve political power by controlling the media and burning books. Also, Nietzsche hated nationalism, anti-Semitism and socialism.
The truth is that the closest thing to Nietzsche's philosphy that has a significant following is Objectivism. Nietzsche's living legacy is Objectivism, not Nazism.
So what did cause Nazi Germany? The answer is simple. Germany was treated too harshly after World War 1 (Treaty of Versailles ect.) and it had a long history of anti-Semitism. That's about it.
So what did we learn from Nazi Germany? We learned the same thing we learned when Seung-Hui Cho went on a rampage. If you bully a man enough he'll go nuts. If you bully a country enough it'll go nuts.
Not exactly. The most important thing that causes Nazism was Hitler personality itself. But I agree that the circumstances were special and that in an other context he would have been listened to.
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And if Charlie Hammer had not turned back the Moors, and the Mongols had gotten so far as Latvia, we would be atguing what aspects of human narure led to a different but equally species-shaming sequence of events.
Everybody talks about history but nobody does anything about it. Like the weather - but worse than the weather because the currents of the human psyche are even harder to predict than the wind that bloweth where it listeth - history is too complex to calculate rigorously even in hindsight.
If it had not been Hitler, Germany in the 30s would have turned up something - better, worse, quien sabe? If Germany had won in WW!, what might not have come out of France?
Alls I knows, people is people, and that spells trouble.
Jacoby
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Pointless? I did not end up as a cake of soap on some Nazi's bathtub precisely because we destroyed Nazi Germany. The U.S. armed forces saved my life.
ruveyn
Jacoby
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Pointless? I did not end up as a cake of soap on some Nazi's bathtub precisely because we destroyed Nazi Germany. The U.S. armed forces saved my life.
ruveyn
I was talking about WWI.
Didn't the US joined WWI out of revenge for the sinking of the Lusitania? I'm more fascinated with what would've happened if the US hadn't gotten involved in WW2 despite the fact that we only joined to get back at the Japanese. I mean the three Axis Powers were clearly on the verge of an entire world takeover and the US didn't make themselves concerned with it until their backyard got attacked. Imagine if Pearl Harbor didn't happened. Perhaps another US attack would've taken place later but it would've been too late by then for US soldiers to push back the Axis takeover. We joined just in the nick of time, I reckon.
I don't buy it. Germany was definitely treated too harshly but that does not mean that this is the cause of Nazi Germany. There were many opportunities for that end to be avoided. The Versailles myth is akin to the one the Japanese nationalists use relating to oil supplies it completely ignores the fact that many people of that nationality did absolutely nothing when they ought to have acted. Japan has an unresolved history because they have so far failed to deal with the aftermath of WW2, the Germans however, have accepted that they did something very wrong.
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Jacoby
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Didn't the US joined WWI out of revenge for the sinking of the Lusitania? I'm more fascinated with what would've happened if the US hadn't gotten involved in WW2 despite the fact that we only joined to get back at the Japanese. I mean the three Axis Powers were clearly on the verge of an entire world takeover and the US didn't make themselves concerned with it until their backyard got attacked. Imagine if Pearl Harbor didn't happened. Perhaps another US attack would've taken place later but it would've been too late by then for US soldiers to push back the Axis takeover. We joined just in the nick of time, I reckon.
They didn't join after the sinking of the Lusitania, iirc it was after the Zimmerman telegram and resumption of "unrestricted" submarine warfare. Even then, Wilson's ulterior motive was his dream of the League of Nations, which the US never ended up joining. (making the world safe for democracy, the war to end all wars, etc.)
They didn't join after the sinking of the Lusitania, iirc it was after the Zimmerman telegram and resumption of "unrestricted" submarine warfare. Even then, Wilson's ulterior motive was his dream of the League of Nations, which the US never ended up joining. (making the world safe for democracy, the war to end all wars, etc.)
Woodrow Wilson was a disaster to the world.
He was Woodrow Wilson, The Good. It is the Good People who are the most dangerous.
ruveyn
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I'll start with Karl Popper. He blamed Nazi Germany on Plato's vison of a "Philosopher King" - a philosopher who is also a king. This does not make sense because pretty much everyone - at some point in their life - has thought, "maybe if we put this smart person in charge it will solve all the world's problems."
Next there's Ben Stein. He blames Nazi Germany on Darwin's theory of evolution. He asserts that the reason Nazis killed Jews is because of the "survival of the fittest" aspect of Darwin's theory. This does not make sense because people in Germany had been talking about killing the Jews for centuries. Martin Luther talked about killing the Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_jews_and_their_lies
But perhaps the most ridiculous idea for what caused Nazi Germany comes from Bertrand Russel. He blamed Nazi Germany on the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche. This notion is simply absurd. First of all there is no evidence that Hitler read Nietzsche. Second of all Nazism and Nietzsche's philosphy are completely different. Nietzsche wanted a world in which any strong-willed person could achieve political power. Under Nazism the Fuhrer opresses all the masses - strong-willed or not - and prevents anyone from achieving the wisdom nessasary to achieve political power by controlling the media and burning books. Also, Nietzsche hated nationalism, anti-Semitism and socialism.
The truth is that the closest thing to Nietzsche's philosphy that has a significant following is Objectivism. Nietzsche's living legacy is Objectivism, not Nazism.
So what did cause Nazi Germany? The answer is simple. Germany was treated too harshly after World War 1 (Treaty of Versailles ect.) and it had a long history of anti-Semitism. That's about it.
So what did we learn from Nazi Germany? We learned the same thing we learned when Seung-Hui Cho went on a rampage. If you bully a man enough he'll go nuts. If you bully a country enough it'll go nuts.
Nietzche also put forth the notion of the "ubermensch" or "superman", and in combination with government policy based upon social Darwinism you have a recipe for genocide. Historically though even Romans had similar attitudes of racial superiority and patriotism, however they didn't consider the prospect of organized genocide. They were more interested in keeping the peace in the lands that they conquered rather than exterminating whoever they deemed "inferior", and that's probably a good thing for everyone since the Romans considered almost everyone except for the Greeks to be inferior. I would consider the philosophies regarding the "ubermensch" and such to be, at the very least, a contributing factor in the wholesale organized murders that the blasted Nazis did.
They were not the only one at the time - anti-Semitism and military nationalism was rising all across the Europe - from Germany to Romanian and "Independent State of Croatia".
Germany allowed the Independent State of Croatia to happen, to, of course, eliminate as many Gipsies and Jews are were there, but they didn't ask them to slaughter in between 100 000 and 700 000 Serbs in Jasenovac and the other camps just for the sake of ethnic cleansing. And of course, we haven't been taught that in schools, not from 1990 when the communism fell. I had to read it in the Wikipedia.
Last edited by Booyakasha on 16 Jul 2011, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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