Are Jews Basically "Fellow Christians?"

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pandabear
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10 Jul 2011, 8:51 am

Inuyasha recently summarized his theological stance thus:

Quote:

I consider Jewish People are basically fellow Christians that God will clear up the misunderstandings on Jesus when they get to heaven. I also believe they get to enter heaven, Christians and Jews believe in the same God.

I don't believe that I've ever come across a doctrine similar to this before. Does it derive from some specific denomination's outlook?

Christians, Jews, and others: how do you regard this doctrine?

JakobVirgil
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10 Jul 2011, 9:11 am

pandabear wrote:

Inuyasha recently summarized his theological stance thus:

Quote:

I don't believe that I've ever come across a doctrine similar to this before. Does it derive from some specific denomination's outlook?

Christians, Jews, and others: how do you regard this doctrine?

It is the same anti-semitic crap that Anne (really a man) Coulter spews.
"Christians are perfected Jews" It is saying that jews are imperfect or deluded potential Xtians.
it is offensive as Hell. But it allows Bigots to be "pro-israel".
While at the same time thinking that 2200 years of rabbis could not understand their own scripture.

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pandabear
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10 Jul 2011, 10:29 am

Ah, here we are

http://www.christianpost.com/news/ann-c ... ews-29742/

Quote:

Ann Coulter: Christians are 'Perfected' Jews

Author and political commentator Ann Coulter ruffed some feathers recently when she said during a CNBC interview that Jews needed to be “perfected.”

Coulter was describing what her dream America would look like and listed Christian as one of the attributes of her perfect country.

“You said we should throw Judaism away and we should all be Christians,” recapped Donny Deutsch, host of CNBC’s The Big Idea and self-professed Jew, following Coulter’s comments last week.

“Yes,” Coulter replied firmly.

The outspoken conservative – whose most recent book is titled, “If Democrats Had Any Brains, They’d Be Republicans” – denied, however, holding the same view as the Iranian president who said he wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.

Instead, she said Christians just wanted “Jews to be perfected.”

“But that is what Christians consider themselves: perfected Jews,” Coulter said.

Christians believe in the Old Testament like Jews, but God was “constantly getting fed up” with man for not being able to obey all the laws, she explained. As a result, Coulter added, Christians believe Jesus Christ came and died on the cross for man’s sins.

“Christians believe the Old Testament. You don’t believe our testament,” said the opinionated and often times controversial author .

“We consider ourselves perfected Christians.”

“For me to say that for you to become a Christian is to become a perfected Christian is not offensive at all,” she told Deutsch after he said he was offended by her comment.

“This is what Christians consider themselves, because our testament is the continuation of your testament.”

Coulter, along with most Christians, believes that Jews like any other person need to accept Jesus Christ as their savior in order to gain salvation.

However, some Christian Zionist leaders have taught what is referred to as the “Two Covenant” or “Dual Covenant” theory on the salvation of Jews. These leaders claim there is another way to salvation for the Jews other than Jesus.

Pastor John Hagee, a staunch Christian Zionist who supports bombing Iran, for example, believes that Jews have a special covenant with God and do not need the cross or Jesus to come to God.

Hagee said converting Jews is a “waste of time.”

“The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people,” Hagee contends, according to an article in the Houston Chronicle in 1988. “They [already] have a faith structure.”

Buddhist, Baha’i and everyone else need to believe in Jesus but not Jews, he continued, adding that Jews already have a covenant with God that was never replaced by Christianity.

More recently, on CNN’s special “God’s Warriors” program, Hagee reaffirmed that he believes Jews do not need to believe in Jesus to be saved.

While Christian leaders debate the salvation of Jews, some of Israel’s top rabbis have been trying to prevent Jews from being evangelized by Christians.

During a massive annual march in Jerusalem earlier this month, the chief rabbinate of Israel, for the first time in 27 years, banned Jews from participating in the parade for fear they would fall prey to Christian missionaries.

The chief rabbinate was informed that there were participants taking part in the gathering to celebrate the Feast of the Tabernacle who would try to convert Jews to Christianity.

Israel has also escalated its crackdown on evangelicals suspected of missionary activities. An American evangelical pastor and his wife – who have lived in Israel for nearly two decades – and the Christian TV network Daystar are among the latest victims of Israel’s no evangelism law.

Daystar’s contract was terminated for broadcasting 15-minute infomercials from a ministry accused of trying to convert Jews through the TV ads.

Over the past 20 years, Christian Zionists have poured billions of dollars into Israel. Annually, evangelical Christians make up one-third of American tourists that visit Israel – second only to American Jews, according to the country’s Minister of Tourism.

So, it would appear that Fr. Inuyasha's theology is somewhat closer to that of John Hagee than of Ann Coulter, in that Jews may gain admittance to Heaven as a result of believing in the same god as Christians. However, Fr. Inuyasha's outlook is somewhat unique in regarding Jews as "Fellow Christians." John Hagee doesn't regard Jews as "Fellow Christians" in any sense. Fa. Ann Coulter does regard Jews as "imperfect Christians", who won't get into Heaven, but who could become "perfected" and gain admission to Heaven by believing in Jesus.

Philologos
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10 Jul 2011, 10:47 am

There is a lot of variety in Christin organizations' attitude to the Jewish Question [so to speak] I say Christian organization because the Christian attitude is pretty straightforward.

You have [not too popular these days said out loud] the attitude - The Jews HAD their chance and they flubbed it, tough.

There is the attitude - God likes Jews so we have to put menorahs around the house and talk up Israel.

Etc.

Christians are perfected Jews is of course absurd. MAYBE you can say that about the Messianics, but it just is not true for me or Pope Benedict. Not even worth putting out data.

As for the Jews are going to come in - well, you got you the ones say EVERYBODY will make it in, the ones that say heaps will get doomed, and all.

Fact fact is we are pretty clear if we listen we do not know who when the door shuts will be inside and who outside.

World would be better if we had fewer people teaching and more people learning.

NeantHumain
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10 Jul 2011, 10:49 am

Well, besides ethnics Jews who have converted to Christianity and small sects like Jews for Jesus, Judaism and Christianity have long been two separate religious and cultural traditions. The very early Christian church may have been a messianic branch of Judaism, but it eventually became a gentile-dominated religion.

JakobVirgil
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10 Jul 2011, 11:03 am

NeantHumain wrote:

it would be more proper to say xtians are minum or Jewish heretics.
or heretic God fearers. To place Judaism as a kind of xtian is no complement.

and on John Hagee here the section on Judaism from his Wikipedia page
Judaism

Quote:

Despite Hagee's professed "Christian Zionist" beliefs and public support for the state of Israel, Hagee has made statements that some have interpreted as antisemitic, including blaming the Holocaust on Jews, stating that Adolf Hitler carried out a divine plan to lead Jews to form the modern state of Israel, calling Jews "poisoned" and "spiritually blind," and stating that the preemptive nuclear attack on Iran that he favors will lead to the deaths of most Jews in Israel.[48]
In his book Jerusalem Countdown, Hagee claims that Adolf Hitler was born from a lineage of "accursed, genocidally murderous half-breed Jews."[49] On page 149 in a chapter with the title 'Who Is a Jew?', Hagee writes:
"It was Esau's descendants who produced the half-breed Jews of history who have persecuted and murdered the Jews beyond human comprehension ... Adolf Hitler was a distant descendant of Esau."[49]
Hagee has attributed the persecution of Jews throughout history, implicitly including the Holocaust, to disobedience, thereby attracting accusations of antisemitism:[50]

"It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day... Their own rebellion had birthed the seed of antisemitism that would arise and bring destruction to them for centuries to come.... it rises from the judgment of God upon his rebellious chosen people."[51]
In the book, Hagee cites material from the Jewish tradition (Jeremiah 9:13–16; 44:2–4, 15–17) to justify this view.
In 2008, in response to a question about this matter, he differentiated between his interpretation of the Bible and his understanding of modern history: "I learn from the Bible that the children of Israel were punished by God for their iniquities. But I do not presume to explain Jewish suffering in modern times. I only seek to alleviate it."[52]

Hagee's interpretation of the historical role of Hitler and the Holocaust in relation to the foundation of the state of Israel has also caused offense. Hagee interprets a reference in Jeremiah 16:16 to "fishers" and "hunters" as symbols of positive motivation (Herzl and Zionism) and negative motivation (Hitler and Nazism) respectively, both sent by God for the purpose of having Jews return to the land of Israel, even suggesting that the Holocaust was willed by God because most Jews ignored Herzl's Zionist call.[53] Following the broadcast of Hagee's remarks in late May 2008, some orthodox and conservative Jews have come forward to defend Hagee against charges of antisemitism, although other Jews have applauded McCain for distancing himself from Hagee.[54][55]

In another sermon, Hagee blamed American economic problems on the fact that the Federal Reserve System is controlled by "a group of Class A stockholders, including the Rothschilds." In the same series, Hagee further asserted that the Rothschilds, who are Jewish, were part of a wide-ranging conspiracy of "international power brokers based in Europe."[56]

So he is the philosemitic end of evangelical Xtianity ?
So the is the sort of semitophile Inuysha is?
with friend like that ,who needs enemies?

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?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/

Jacoby
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10 Jul 2011, 11:05 am

I'd say this is a pretty common viewpoint amongst the practicing Christians that I know.

ruveyn
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10 Jul 2011, 11:05 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

pandabear wrote:

Inuyasha recently summarized his theological stance thus:

Quote:

I don't believe that I've ever come across a doctrine similar to this before. Does it derive from some specific denomination's outlook?

Christians, Jews, and others: how do you regard this doctrine?

The Jews are already perfect. And surely a bunch of Gentiles who think 1 = 3 will not be a more perfect version.

ruveyn

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10 Jul 2011, 11:06 am

Of course, everybody knows that Americans are perfected Englishmen.

Of whom Canadians and Australians are demonic caricatures or wannabes.

We all pray [NOT in official gatherings] for the salvation of the Brits. Someday the Queen will apply for citizenship.

cdfox7
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10 Jul 2011, 11:25 am

Philologos wrote:

I say my good chap wash your mouth out with a cup of tea!
Yanks perfected Englishmen!

If thats the case then your Americans would have more respect for English football, especially for my football team Liverpool football club

In my name of Shankly, Paisley and Dalglish I pray for the soccer salvation of you yanks.

Philologos
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10 Jul 2011, 11:50 am

cdfox7 wrote:

Philologos wrote:

I say my good chap wash your mouth out with a cup of tea!
Yanks perfected Englishmen!

If thats the case then your Americans would have more respect for English football, especially for my football team Liverpool football club

In my name of Shankly, Paisley and Dalglish I pray for the soccer salvation of you yanks.

You see what these unperfected are like? They make tea all wrong and drink beer too warm and then have the nerve to criticize the way WE do it. Their versions of football and baseball [they can't even get the name right, they call their version of baseball locust, or roach - some kind of bug] are ridiculous caricatures, and they cannot tell the right side of the road from the left.

And the way they talk! They say the French can't pronounce their own bloody language!

But they are our brothers, some day they will find their way to join us in a Perfected Anglophone Oikumene. Maybe we will even let the Kiwis in.

cdfox7
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10 Jul 2011, 12:36 pm

Philologos wrote:

cdfox7 wrote:

Philologos wrote:

I say my good chap wash your mouth out with a cup of tea!
Yanks perfected Englishmen!

If thats the case then your Americans would have more respect for English football, especially for my football team Liverpool football club

In my name of Shankly, Paisley and Dalglish I pray for the soccer salvation of you yanks.

Good sir your fellow yankie kin make tea with water from the Boston Harbour, we English make our tea with tap water.
Your beer tastes like nats piss, your craft beers are inspired by the way we Bits brew fine real ale. Your countries versions of Rugby and Rounders are a corporate joke. You call your teams franchises thats a joke, plus its an insult when Hicks and Gillett called my football club a "soccer franchise"!

You yanks drive on the wrong side of the road, plus remember what your language is called now its called ENGLISH not American!!

Canadians, Australians and Kiwis join us your fellow Bits as brothers and sisters of the Commonwealth to protect our Anglophone culture from the Yanks.

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!! ! :salut:

pandabear
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10 Jul 2011, 12:47 pm

Of the three theologians mentioned above, I think that Miss Coulter comes closest to traditional Christian views.

If you look at the Gospel accounts of Jesus' death sentence, for example:

Matthew 27 wrote:

Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.

The Gospel writers are careful to absolve Pontius Pilate and the Romans of any blame in Jesus' execution: the fault is laid squarely upon the Jews themselves, and upon their children. Matthew tends to contain a very strong anti-Jewish sentiment:

Matthew 23 wrote:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
"Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

If we look again at Inuyasha's theological stance:

Fr. Inuyasha wrote:

I don't think that the idea that Jews get to enter Heaven is quite consistent with traditional Christian viewpoints.

Regarding whether "Christians and Jews believe in the same God":

I don't think that's entirely true. The ancient Hebrews had their tribal god, who went by the name of "Yahweh." Yahweh eventually came to be regarded as the only God in existence, and the Jewish people as being the vessel through which God effected his will on earth, or some such thing as that.

While Christianity did begin as a bizarre Jewish cult, it also incorporated a lot of Pagan and Zoroastrian rituals and ideas (which Christians have sought to downplay in preference for an emphasis on Jewish origins, including lists of Old Testament passages that are purported to have come true in the New Testament, through some really long stretches of credulity).

Christianity has a triune God. God the Father corresponds roughly to Yahweh. The other two-thirds of God (the Son and the Holy Spirit) have no basis in Judaism.

If belief in the triune Christian God, including the Son who died for the sins of Christians, is a requirement for entering Heaven, then I don't see what the basis is for the Christian God permitting Jews into Heaven.

Furthermore, as I understand it, Judaism isn't quite so obsessed with individual entry into Heaven as Christianity is.

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10 Jul 2011, 1:04 pm

Are you claiming the variously unattractive Ann Coulter is a theologian? That is how it seems to read. Her bio calls her "an American lawyer, conservative social and political commentator, author, and syndicated columnist."

As to believing in the same God, there are different takes. Herself tends to say that the Christian and Muslim do not have the same God - a fairly common view - in light of the serious differences in theology.

My own view, there is one God. The Jew who worships God and the Muslim who worships God worship the same God, because God is One. If one seeks and talks with God, one God talks back. But the theologians and those who take off them say and believe different things about God.

The Jewish VIEW of God is NOT the same as the Greek Orthodox VIEW of God which is not the Shiite VIEW of God nor the Southern Baptist VIEW of God nor the Sufi VIEW of God. But God, like the real elephant, is one.

pandabear
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10 Jul 2011, 1:57 pm

Philologos wrote:

Just an amateur theologian.

Quote:

My own view, there is one God. The Jew who worships God and the Muslim who worships God worship the same God, because God is One. If one seeks and talks with God, one God talks back. But the theologians and those who take off them say and believe different things about God.

The Jewish VIEW of God is NOT the same as the Greek Orthodox VIEW of God which is not the Shiite VIEW of God nor the Southern Baptist VIEW of God nor the Sufi VIEW of God. But God, like the real elephant, is one.

Was Baal the same as Yahweh?

Philologos
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10 Jul 2011, 3:36 pm

So cute. But I will favor you.

As you no doubt know Baal / Bel بعل בעל ܒܥܠ is not technically a divine name, but the general ProtoSemitic word for "lord" Which in light of developments in the tradition is kind of cute.

As you no doubt also know, there were God alone knows how many deities worshipped as Baal this and Baal that among the Canaanite ethnic groups alone.

If you have any theologic sophistication [which is not indubitable] or have read C S Lewis The Last Battle with moderate attention, you will comprehend that if Hannibal of New Town - Carthage to you - worshipped God in Spirit and Truth under the name Baal Hammon, and Gaius of Rome worshipped God in Spirit and Truth under the name Jupiter, and Marqos of Midyat worships God in Spirit and Truth under the name 'Aloho, that is just one God.

But if Hasdrubal worshipped Baal Hammon in the sense of making sacrifices for popular show or as a means of bribing fate., or if Jim Jones leads "Christian" worship for - whatever his motives may have been - they are NOT worshipping the one and the same God. They might be doing the same thing - but it gots nothing to do with God.

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