Socialism From Above and Below

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Some people believe in "socialism from above" which means that they want the socialist movement to be lead by an elite of intellectuals. That is what happened in the Soviet Union. Look what happened.

Some people belive in "socialism from below" which means they want the socialist movement to be lead by the poor people. Karl Marx believed in that and so do I.

The Soviet Union was not lead by intellectuals. The Trotskyites and many other 'good natured' intellectuals were "given the boot" relatively early. You have the Russian Civil War to thank for what the USSR became. Inevitably the conflict and the efforts of outside nations to crush the Reds lead to a cadre of violent, militaristic types in charge, which would have repercussions on USSR history for decades to come

You have to balance "above" and "below" for there to be any semblance of an actual socialist state. In truth I don't consider there ever to really have been "socialism from above". "Socialism from below" can lead to events like the "Killing Fields" in Cambodia. The poor and the young are often resentful and easily manipulated- the average Khmer Rouge was a child soldier

I would say socialism itself is not a bad thing but it should ideally exist inside of a free market framework without ideas such as 'People's Revolution' being thrown everywhere

Problem is - the people on the ground are too busy living to change society except by a process similar to the deveklopment of the forest.

Problem is - the innerlekshals who think they are thinkers and tell one another they are elite have the time and energy and drive to force change on society and have no clue as to what should happen.

I can agree with you thus far, though - those who think they know how the world ought to be should be kept out of the driver's seat.

They were elitists.

yea, what is socialism from below? Pol Pot's Year Zero?

Dictatorship of any sort evil and wrong

True, but why would socialism require a dictatorship?

I think we've been over this before but as a form of government on any large scale, socialism requires force. 'But Darth was more specifically talking about socialism in the communist perspective I think since he referenced the Soviet Union and Karl Marx.

I wasn't talking about communism specifically.

I do not think the Soviet Union is what Marx had in mind......but anyways I do not think it would have to require force, obviously in the U.S for instance there is no way it will become a socialist country any time soon if at all without force. but there is still some socialism incorporated into our system.

If people had the right mindset for socialism it could exist, and well the more socialist european countries(some of them) seem to be doing all right without having a dictatorship.

You are overlooking the fact that both approaches have a record ranging from piss poor to nonexistent when it comes to establishing checks and balances for limited government to protect personal liberty...unless you believe like Lenin that liberty is so precious that it must be carefully rationed by the government.

Socialism also has two other piss poor records: human rights and a sustainable economy.

Later in his life Karl Marx looked at some of the stuff that was being written and said, "if this is Marxism the I am not a Marxist."

If you want a dictator free socialism from below you need Swiss style democracy.

Lovely system.

They are also small enough for direct democracy to work. Switzerland has a population about the size of Virginia or a little smaller than NYC.

That was a valid point before the digital age, now it should scale easily enough.

Ah, thought this would be about nationalizing airlines and subways.


I think we will naturally shift that way as technology allows it, the biggest challenge at that point being what we will do to keep people engage, healthy, and mentally active as more and more people don't need to work.

Despise them for being the scrounging scum that they are and starve them to death if the current trajectory is continued.