Malachi 3: 7-12

Page 1 of 3 [ 36 posts ] Go to page 1, 2, 3 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

29 Aug 2011, 9:49 am

King Jimmy's version:

Quote:

"Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you", saith the LORD of hosts. "But ye said, 'Wherein shall we return? Will a man rob God?' Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, 'Wherein have we robbed thee?' In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith", saith the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field", saith the LORD of hosts. "And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land", saith the LORD of hosts.

Good News Translation:

Quote:

You, like your ancestors before you, have turned away from my laws and have not kept them. Turn back to me, and I will turn to you. But you ask, "What must we do to turn back to you?" I ask you, is it right for a person to cheat God? Of course not, yet you are cheating me.

"How?" you ask. In the matter of tithes and offerings. A curse is on all of you because the whole nation is cheating me. Bring the full amount of your tithes to the Temple, so that there will be plenty of food there. Put me to the test and you will see that I will open the windows of heaven and pour out on you in abundance all kinds of good things. I will not let insects destroy your crops, and your grapevines will be loaded with grapes. Then the people of all nations will call you happy, because your land will be a good place to live.

New American Standard:

Quote:

“From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,” says the LORD of hosts. “But you say, ‘How shall we return?’

“Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, ‘How have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the LORD of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes,” says the LORD of hosts. “All the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land,” says the LORD of hosts.

Discuss.

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

29 Aug 2011, 10:09 am

Discuss?

I would give the class a few more guidelines.

Discuss the translation differences? Certainly, but one ought to bring in the original, and these are not the best versions for such a purpose.

Discuss the use of this passage in the apologetics of the tithing groups? Certainly, but one needs access to supplementary material. I have seen and heard tithing talk so based, but not everyone will have.

Discuss the theological fit - how this contributes to the God-Gestalt? Certainly - but that is going to involve some high level background not all have.

I will give you this [and a point for this being the closest thing to a serious non-smoking topic I have seen from you] - this is one of a number of passages that are often taken out of context and wrested by Barkers and Powervolk to the detriment of maloverniki who trust leaders more than leading. It has been turned into - in effect - a ploy in a confidence trick.

This is deplorable.

pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

29 Aug 2011, 10:54 am

Philologos wrote:

If a member of the class can bring in a direct translation of the original Hebrew, that would be very helpful.

Quote:

Discuss the use of this passage in the apologetics of the tithing groups? Certainly, but one needs access to supplementary material. I have seen and heard tithing talk so based, but not everyone will have.

If a member of the class wishes to introduce supplementary material at this point, that would be encouraged.

Quote:

Discuss the theological fit - how this contributes to the God-Gestalt? Certainly - but that is going to involve some high level background not all have.

This is where the professional theologians may weigh in. I'm purely an amateur, who do not speak or read any of the biblical languages.

Quote:

I will give you this [and a point for this being the closest thing to a serious non-smoking topic I have seen from you] - this is one of a number of passages that are often taken out of context and wrested by Barkers and Powervolk to the detriment of maloverniki who trust leaders more than leading. It has been turned into - in effect - a ploy in a confidence trick.

This is deplorable.

Yes, it is. I would like the topic developed further. Some WP members probably do perceive this passage as a reason to give loads of money to their churches.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,951
Location:

29 Aug 2011, 11:06 am

Was this a direct transcript of God's words to Malachi, or was Malachi merely writing on behalf of those clergy who coveted their neighbors' wealth?

_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.

androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

29 Aug 2011, 11:13 am

Since in ancient Israel the Priests were the Medical Doctors, payment of tithes was used to fund a form of socialized medicine which is a fact that really angers today's right wing fundamentalist preachers who insist that universal medical coverage is not a Biblical right and that the poor must be denied access to all medical care except emergency treatment so that the Capitalist system can triumph.

Even today Israel has universal access to medical care which of course the religious right wants to dismantle. This may make the religious right more of a danger to Israels security than the Palestinians because of the needless death and suffering this will cause to poor people.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,951
Location:

29 Aug 2011, 11:25 am

androbot2084 wrote:

Since in ancient Israel the Priests were the Medical Doctors ...

Evidence, please?

androbot2084 wrote:

... payment of tithes was used to fund a form of socialized medicine...

Evidence, please?

androbot2084 wrote:

... which is a fact that really angers today's right wing fundamentalist preachers who insist that universal medical coverage is not a Biblical right...

Even if you had evidence to support this claim, it would still be irrelevant, as the Bible is not universally accepts as factual.

androbot2084 wrote:

... and that the poor must be denied access to all medical care except emergency treatment so that the Capitalist system can triumph.

Evidence, please?

androbot2084 wrote:

Even today Israel has universal access to medical care which of course the religious right wants to dismantle.

Evidence, please?

androbot2084 wrote:

This may make the religious right more of a danger to Israels security than the Palestinians because of the needless death and suffering this will cause to poor people.

Evidence, please?

By "evidence", I mean something other than your own subjective opinions and other Socialist propaganda.

johansen
Deinonychus

Joined: 15 May 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 327

29 Aug 2011, 11:53 am

from discussions on various translations to lunacy..

i love this place.

not sure what details OP would like to discuss though..

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

29 Aug 2011, 12:51 pm

Fnord wrote:

Was this a direct transcript of God's words to Malachi, or was Malachi merely writing on behalf of those clergy who coveted their neighbors' wealth?

Ask Malachi. Or, better, ask God.

androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

29 Aug 2011, 2:21 pm

In Leviticus 14:2 The Lepers were commanded to appear before the Priest.in order to be cleansed.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,951
Location:

29 Aug 2011, 3:14 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

In Leviticus 14:2 The Lepers were commanded to appear before the Priest.in order to be cleansed.

... MAGICALLY ... with a ritual involving water, pigeon's blood, hyssop, three lambs, flour, and oil (reads like a recipe for a barbecue). Said ritual being required because leprosy was once considered both a sin and a symptom of sin, but not a disease.

Quote:

"The priest is to take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot."

Those priests were not physicians in any way.

blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

29 Aug 2011, 3:32 pm

Fnord wrote:

androbot2084 wrote:

In Leviticus 14:2 The Lepers were commanded to appear before the Priest.in order to be cleansed.

Quote:

"The priest is to take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot."

Those priests were not physicians in any way.

Dude. You're talking to a sock puppet. Stop feeding the trolls.

pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

29 Aug 2011, 3:35 pm

All right, class. Here is some supplementary reading material, which demonstrates the utility of the passage in the modern business of Christianity.

http://www.johnhamelministries.org/Pers ... _tithe.htm

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

29 Aug 2011, 7:04 pm

Just for the record - in case it matters:

A. The tithing deal is by no means pandemic even in the Evangelical and Pentecostal streams

B. It is stipulated that the media tithing pushes rest on very shaky theologic ground and are of National Enquirer caliber.

C.The thoughtful inquirer will find a dearth of New Covenant support - much less mandate for tithing and will see that the Malachi passage is irrelevant to the situation of the averahe modern Christian.

D. A tithing pastor once pointed out to me that REALLY one ought top be paying out about three tenths.

E. The do ut des is a clear pagan principal and Christians are not supposed to be let themselves be taken in.

Knifey
Deinonychus

Joined: 19 Aug 2011
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 324
Location: South Australia

29 Aug 2011, 7:19 pm

The message is taken from, and interpreted from the original greek (or oldest text possible, as i'm aware) and translated into understandable modern day language. Unfortunately this means he has to paraphrase in order to make it more understandable. But I find it very accurate and often the most easy to understand version of the bible. you can find it at the biblegateway website.

The Message (MSG) - Malachi 3:7-12 wrote:

6-7"I am God—yes, I Am. I haven't changed. And because I haven't changed, you, the descendants of Jacob, haven't been destroyed. You have a long history of ignoring my commands. You haven't done a thing I've told you. Return to me so I can return to you," says God-of-the-Angel-Armies.

"You ask, 'But how do we return?'

8-11"Begin by being honest. Do honest people rob God? But you rob me day after day.

"You ask, 'How have we robbed you?'

"The tithe and the offering—that's how! And now you're under a curse —the whole lot of you—because you're robbing me. Bring your full tithe to the Temple treasury so there will be ample provisions in my Temple. Test me in this and see if I don't open up heaven itself to you and pour out blessings beyond your wildest dreams. For my part, I will defend you against marauders, protect your wheat fields and vegetable gardens against plunderers." The Message of God-of-the-Angel-Armies.

12"You'll be voted 'Happiest Nation.' You'll experience what it's like to be a country of grace." God-of-the-Angel-Armies says so.

What I take from this is God saying, I love you guys, I've always loved you guys, but i'm not looking after you because you're not looking after my temple. Give the money I once commanded you to give so the temple can be restored and maintained and I will dwell there, and bring my armies of angels to look after you and bless your land. If you are trying to extrapolate direct meaning of what God wants us to do today, I'm not sure you can do that from any of the old covenant as we live under the new covenant (new testament) unless you're a jew.

_________________
Four thousand six hundred and ninety one irradiated haggis? Check.

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

29 Aug 2011, 7:34 pm

Knifey wrote:

l If you are trying to extrapolate direct meaning of what God wants us to do today, I'm not sure you can do that from any of the old covenant as we live under the new covenant (new testament) unless you're a jew.

IN which case you have no temple to maintain anyhow.

Not clear if the Levites still ought to get tithe supported even sans temple functions. Maybe Al Levi and Harry Cohen could tell us.

Knifey
Deinonychus

Joined: 19 Aug 2011
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 324
Location: South Australia

29 Aug 2011, 9:31 pm

Philologos wrote:

IN which case you have no temple to maintain anyhow.

Well actually the church is our new temple. Our pastors/priests are our new levites. A congregation usually wants their leader to be at their beck and call 7 days a week so thats why they pay him a wage (the wage is usually set as part of the cumulative tithe a church takes). Some pastors/priests don't get a wage or are only payed 10 hours a week etc and they also have another job as well. In a way I think this is a modern day adaptation but the core principle is based in scripture (it is a good thing to give to God, and if people work for you then pay them).

_________________
Four thousand six hundred and ninety one irradiated haggis? Check.

Page 1 of 3 [ 36 posts ] Go to page 1, 2, 3 Next

Jump to:

Malachi 3: 7-12 Post Reply New Topic

Malachi 3: 7-12