"So you think money is the root of all evil?"

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wcoltd
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08 Sep 2011, 10:44 pm

Quote:
"So you think money is the root of all evil?"...
"Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?"

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only by on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor - your cliam upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?"

"Have you ever looked at the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions-and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth."

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made - before it can be looted or mooched - made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced."

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgement of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss - the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery - that you must offer them values, not wounds 0 that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best that your money can find. And when men live by trade - with reason, not force, as their final arbiter - it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgement and highest ability - and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is that what you consider evil?"

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality - the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind."

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants: money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgement, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered; that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?


-Atlas Shrugged



Last edited by wcoltd on 09 Sep 2011, 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

01001011
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08 Sep 2011, 10:52 pm

Right. It is some people's irrational use of money that is evil.



Fnord
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08 Sep 2011, 11:04 pm

Money is a static, inactive thing; therefor, it can not have evil intent - it is not evil.

Using money as a tool to kill, maim, injure, hurt, humiliate, embarrass, or otherwise exploit others for personal gain or gratification is evil; plain and simple.


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Kraichgauer
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08 Sep 2011, 11:51 pm

I believe the actual quote by the Apostle Paul was, the love of money is the root of all evil.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



cw10
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08 Sep 2011, 11:58 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I believe the actual quote by the Apostle Paul was, the love of money is the root of all evil.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You are correct sir!



JohnyJohn
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09 Sep 2011, 4:01 am

Selfishness of course.With selfishness all sins start,from the smallest to the biggest.



Helixstein
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09 Sep 2011, 4:14 am

I would say that socialism is the one situation where money can not be utilised for evil purposes, but if I did, then I would be setting myself up to be called an imbecile. In theory, capitalism encourages sinister ethics surrounding money, but it seems that a free-market economy is a more effective manner of preventing evil regarding money than a Communist ideology surrounding money.


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iamnotaparakeet
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09 Sep 2011, 5:37 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
I believe the actual quote by the Apostle Paul was, the love of money is the root of all evil.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


According to a friend of mine who knows something about Greek, it's not "all evil" but instead "all kinds of evil" that would be the more proper translation. Evil existed before there was money to be loved, within the Biblical paradigm, and so it would follow that if there is evil without the existence of money then money is not the root of all evil.



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09 Sep 2011, 6:53 am

Actually, Kraichgauer is right - the word in 1 Timothy 6,10 is φιλαργυρία (philarguria) - love of money, covetousness, avarice.

ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστὶν ἡ φιλαργυρία, ἧς τινὲς ὀρεγόμενοι ἀπεπλανήθησαν ἀπὸ τῆς πίστεως καὶ ἑαυτοὺς περιέπειραν ὀδύναις πολλαῖς.
1 Timothy chapter 6-10

(Vulgata)



Kraichgauer
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09 Sep 2011, 10:17 am

Booyakasha wrote:
Actually, Kraichgauer is right - the word in 1 Timothy 6,10 is φιλαργυρία (philarguria) - love of money, covetousness, avarice.

ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστὶν ἡ φιλαργυρία, ἧς τινὲς ὀρεγόμενοι ἀπεπλανήθησαν ἀπὸ τῆς πίστεως καὶ ἑαυτοὺς περιέπειραν ὀδύναις πολλαῖς.
1 Timothy chapter 6-10

(Vulgata)


Thank you.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



iamnotaparakeet
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09 Sep 2011, 10:30 am

Booyakasha wrote:
Actually, Kraichgauer is right - the word in 1 Timothy 6,10 is φιλαργυρία (philarguria) - love of money, covetousness, avarice.

ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστὶν ἡ φιλαργυρία, ἧς τινὲς ὀρεγόμενοι ἀπεπλανήθησαν ἀπὸ τῆς πίστεως καὶ ἑαυτοὺς περιέπειραν ὀδύναις πολλαῖς.
1 Timothy chapter 6-10

(Vulgata)


I wasn't disputing that.



Booyakasha
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09 Sep 2011, 12:10 pm

Then I apologise for barging in.



Obres
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09 Sep 2011, 12:15 pm

wcoltd wrote:
Quote:
"So you think money is the root of all evil?"...
"Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?"

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only by on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor - your cliam upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?"

"Have you ever looked at the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions-and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth."

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made - before it can be looted or mooched - made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced."...


-Atlas Shrugged


That's a pretty idealistic view of money. Obviously, Ayn Rand never conceived of an economy where speculation driven by collusion among the major financial forces overwhelmingly distorts any actual value (utility) that a good or service or idea might have.



ruveyn
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09 Sep 2011, 12:19 pm

Obres wrote:
wcoltd wrote:
Quote:
"So you think money is the root of all evil?"...
"Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?"

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only by on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor - your cliam upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?"

"Have you ever looked at the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions-and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth."

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made - before it can be looted or mooched - made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced."...


-Atlas Shrugged


That's a pretty idealistic view of money. Obviously, Ayn Rand never conceived of an economy where speculation driven by collusion among the major financial forces overwhelmingly distorts any actual value (utility) that a good or service or idea might have.


-Atlas Shrugged- is all about the evils of Crony Capitalism. She must certainly did speculate about this. She wrote a very long novel about it.

ruveyn



Last edited by ruveyn on 09 Sep 2011, 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

techstepgenr8tion
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09 Sep 2011, 12:21 pm

Lol, that varies wildly depending on what you believe on this point: is there such a think as inherent genetic tendencies that exist as a behavioral default for humanity or are we tabula rasa? If you believe the former like I do then no, money is whatever you make of it. If you believe the later (most notably Zeitgeist and RBE people) then its the current economic paradigm that generates evil and thus the current economic state that needs to be deconstructed and reconstructed in order to take our tabula rasa nature and reconstruct it in its proper purity.


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09 Sep 2011, 1:57 pm

Helixstein wrote:
I would say that socialism is the one situation where money can not be utilised for evil purposes, but if I did, then I would be setting myself up to be called an imbecile. In theory, capitalism encourages sinister ethics surrounding money, but it seems that a free-market economy is a more effective manner of preventing evil regarding money than a Communist ideology surrounding money.

Any time that money is given in exchange for an evil act (ie, assassination, fraud, theft, et cetera), money is being utilized for an evil purpose. It does not matter which social or political system it occurs under, because no such man-made system can ever fully eliminate evil.


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