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Immigration as [active transport] across a Membrane.

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JakobVirgil
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10 Oct 2011, 5:28 pm

I think we are all familiar with the thought problem Maxwell's demon.

Quote:
This model illustrates a famous thought experiment, which raised important issues about the nature of entropy. In 1871, James Clerk Maxwell imagined a situation where a very small and nimble being could, by opening and closing a valve between two gas-filled chambers, allow only faster particles to go through one way and only slower particles to go through the other. By doing this, the being (later called a demon) could raise the temperature of one chamber (faster particles) and lower the temperature of the other (slower particles), without the expenditure of work.


One could think of the U.S. Mexican border in this way with the particles played by Mexicans
(money replacing speed.)
The demon in this case is played by a coyote (professional human smuggler).
Who kindly rids us of the problem of breaking the laws of thermodynamics by charging for his service.
poor Mexicans filter into the U.S. (for a charge)
Rich Mexicans filter out. (If you have money and are from there mexico is a great place to live.)
Leaving really only costs gas money.
U.S border policy controls the price the coyote can charge i.e. we make it hard to cross it becomes expensive
we make it easy enough his services are not needed.

This is what I have found the number of Mexicans living in the U.S. is a function of the cost to cross
and this is a positive relationship. This may seem counter intuitive but the model suggests the harder
we make it to cross the border the more Mexicans will live in the U.S.A.

model available to the interested :oops:


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Last edited by JakobVirgil on 11 Oct 2011, 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John_Browning
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10 Oct 2011, 6:42 pm

Unless we build an Iron Curtain between us and Mexico, then we can cut the alien invaders down to a trickle. If people caught crossing illegally were shot on site without an option to submit to arrest, and if tunnels were searched for constantly, and were gassed and then destroyed, there wouldn't be hardly any alien invaders coming over anymore and the drug supply (except meth and weed) would likely drop a little too.


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JakobVirgil
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10 Oct 2011, 6:47 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Unless we build an Iron Curtain between us and Mexico, then we can cut the alien invaders down to a trickle. If people caught crossing illegally were shot on site without an option to submit to arrest, and if tunnels were searched for constantly, and were gassed and then destroyed, there wouldn't be hardly any alien invaders coming over anymore and the drug supply (except meth and weed) would likely drop a little too.


If the goal is to have less mexicans in america then according to the model that could be done by making it easier to cross.
Your plan seems very expensive and government intensive and would effectively trap all the folks you want to get rid
of in the united states. (which would be fine with me I enjoy burritos).


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cw10
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10 Oct 2011, 10:21 pm

We could just jail and deport all or most of them as they come in. Try being an American and illegally immigrating to Mexico and see what happens to you.



Joker
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10 Oct 2011, 11:42 pm

cw10 wrote:
We could just jail and deport all or most of them as they come in. Try being an American and illegally immigrating to Mexico and see what happens to you.


If the country had Corperations like we do then Americans that immagrate to another country would get all the benefits pay no taxes and get cheaper healthcare and a drivers license ect.

America loves Immagrants their the Corperations cheap labor force.



MarketAndChurch
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11 Oct 2011, 1:30 am

making it harder to cross and fighting to cross it are just means. The ends are a saturated labor market and a decreased quality of life that doesn't need more illegals, and, mexicans looking for a better life in the land of opportunity. Kim Jong Ill makes it very difficult to get into his sh***y country, but no one really wants to go there. East Germans didn't sneak into the other half of Berlin because there were increased restrictions preventing them from doing it easily. The movement of people are animated by higher motivations and a vote for what they think works.

There are some who opt to stay in a really bad place, or have no way out of it, but given the opportunity to do so in this case with a good chance of still being alive after the process makes you an idiot not to try and get into America.

This is a mexican problem because they happen to border us. This would be a Thai, Sudanese, and Malayan issue if they too bordered us as well. It speaks of America's greatness and the fact that they come here for opportunity, and not benefits like Europe speaks volumes to the greatness of this system. Removing barriers would only amount to more of them coming over,and over burden a system already over-burdened system.


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John_Browning
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11 Oct 2011, 1:42 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Unless we build an Iron Curtain between us and Mexico, then we can cut the alien invaders down to a trickle. If people caught crossing illegally were shot on site without an option to submit to arrest, and if tunnels were searched for constantly, and were gassed and then destroyed, there wouldn't be hardly any alien invaders coming over anymore and the drug supply (except meth and weed) would likely drop a little too.


If the goal is to have less mexicans in america then according to the model that could be done by making it easier to cross.
Your plan seems very expensive and government intensive and would effectively trap all the folks you want to get rid
of in the united states. (which would be fine with me I enjoy burritos).

They would have to be free to leave. If you relax the border, they will flood across the border like swarms of locusts, terrorist sleepers would come with them, especially since some cartel groups have ties with them, and the cartels would be able to cross so easily that they wouldn't have much incentive to hide their presence and we would risk having their "silver or lead" ultimatums to politicians land law enforcement officials over here. For all functional purposes, Mexico is a failed state and we need to keep strict boundaries between our society and theirs or we risk them dragging us down with them.


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JakobVirgil
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11 Oct 2011, 6:47 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
making it harder to cross and fighting to cross it are just means. The ends are a saturated labor market and a decreased quality of life that doesn't need more illegals, and, mexicans looking for a better life in the land of opportunity. Kim Jong Ill makes it very difficult to get into his sh***y country, but no one really wants to go there. East Germans didn't sneak into the other half of Berlin because there were increased restrictions preventing them from doing it easily. The movement of people are animated by higher motivations and a vote for what they think works.

There are some who opt to stay in a really bad place, or have no way out of it, but given the opportunity to do so in this case with a good chance of still being alive after the process makes you an idiot not to try and get into America.

This is a mexican problem because they happen to border us. This would be a Thai, Sudanese, and Malayan issue if they too bordered us as well. It speaks of America's greatness and the fact that they come here for opportunity, and not benefits like Europe speaks volumes to the greatness of this system. Removing barriers would only amount to more of them coming over,and over burden a system already over-burdened system.


Does not speak to the issues in the model.
Historically Mexicans come to America to work temporally.
They make their money and go home.
Only since the borders have been tightened do they seem to stay in such high numbers.
This is a theory that trys to explain that correlation.
I feel non-Mexican emigration works completely differently because of the distances involved.


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JakobVirgil
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11 Oct 2011, 6:52 am

cw10 wrote:
We could just jail and deport all or most of them as they come in. Try being an American and illegally immigrating to Mexico and see what happens to you.


That sound expensive and government intensive.
About Illegal Immigration to mexico what happens to you?
Let me think . . . .
nothing people do it all the time.
there is nobody at the US to mexico checkpoint you just walk in.


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naturalplastic
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11 Oct 2011, 7:51 am

Think I see what you're saying.

Making border crossing harder may not cause more Mexicans to cross the border but it might well cause more of them to stay permanantly in the USA.

Actually- at the turn of the 20th centurey millions of Southern Italians shuttled back and forth between Italy and the USA follwoing jobs back and forth. A change in laws in the USA forced millions of Italians to have to choose one country or the other- and millions picked the USA to permaneantly reside in. So if you dont like rigatoni and dont like Franki Valli and the Four Seasons you can blame that law!

But if you made the membrane completely nonporous you might stop all diffusion of the molocules (or people) in question. No new people would come over but those already here(like you said) would be forced to stay permanenantly.



JakobVirgil
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11 Oct 2011, 7:58 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Think I see what you're saying.

Making border crossing harder may not cause more Mexicans to cross the border but it might well cause more of them to stay permanantly in the USA.

Actually- at the turn of the 20th centurey millions of Southern Italians shuttled back and forth between Italy and the USA follwoing jobs back and forth. A change in laws in the USA forced millions of Italians to have to choose one country or the other- and millions picked the USA to permaneantly reside in. So if you dont like rigatoni and dont like Franki Valli and the Four Seasons you can blame that law!

(1) But if you made the membrane completely nonporous you might stop all diffusion of the molocules (or people) in question. No new people would come over but those already here(like you said) would be forced to stay permanenantly.


Damn law!! :oops:
oh I mean I welcome our Italian brothers. :lol:

The thing is you can't make it completely Immigrant tight only really expensive.
I think in the future these "anti-immigration" laws may be seen as the reason the U.S. is 50% Latino.


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Their hungry thirsty roots??

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visagrunt
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11 Oct 2011, 2:36 pm

The most appropriate comparison seems to me to be active transport--the movement of substances across a cell membrane against its concentration gradient.

After all--it takes considerable effort for a person to make repeated attempts to get into the cytoplasm that is the United States.


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JakobVirgil
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11 Oct 2011, 2:39 pm

visagrunt wrote:
The most appropriate comparison seems to me to be active transport--the movement of substances across a cell membrane against its concentration gradient.

After all--it takes considerable effort for a person to make repeated attempts to get into the cytoplasm that is the United States.


Exactly right I feel foolish for the title now. :lol:
Yeah the demon/coyote is an active transport gate.
Would I look like a dunce if I fix the title? :oops:


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12 Oct 2011, 9:38 am

John_Browning wrote:
Unless we build an Iron Curtain between us and Mexico, then we can cut the alien invaders down to a trickle. If people caught crossing illegally were shot on site without an option to submit to arrest, and if tunnels were searched for constantly, and were gassed and then destroyed, there wouldn't be hardly any alien invaders coming over anymore and the drug supply (except meth and weed) would likely drop a little too.


America, land of Freedom. Let's gas and murder people!