Why I am not a Catholic (briefly)

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Looks more like Obama has tried to wreck the economy even further.

Btw, Obama was one of the ones sueing banks when they weren't making these loans to people that couldn't afford them.

Something to lighten the mood:

After getting all of Pope Benedict's luggage loaded into the limo, (and he doesn't travel light), the driver notices the Pope is still standing on the curb. 'Excuse me, Your Holiness,' says the driver, 'Would you please take your seat so we can leave?'

'Well, to tell you the truth,' says the Pope, 'they never let me drive at the Vatican when I was a cardinal, and I'd really like to drive today.'

'I'm sorry, Your Holiness, but I cannot let you do that. I'd lose my job! What if something should happen?' protests the driver, wishing he'd never gone to work that morning.

'Who's going to tell?' says the Pope with a smile.

Reluctantly, the driver gets in the back as the Pope climbs in behind the wheel. The driver quickly regrets his decision when, after exiting the airport, the Pontiff floors it, accelerating the limo to 205 kms. (Remember, the Pope is German.)

'Please slow down, Your Holiness!' pleads the worried driver, but the Pope keeps the pedal to the metal until they hear sirens.

'Oh, dear God, I'm going to lose my license -- and my job!' moans the driver.

The Pope pulls over and rolls down the window as the cop approaches, but the cop takes one look at him, goes back to his motorcycle, and gets on the radio.

'I need to talk to the Chief,' he says to the dispatcher.

The Chief gets on the radio and the cop tells him that he's stopped a limo going 205 kph.

'So bust him,' says the Chief.

'I don't think we want to do that, he's really important,' said the cop.
The Chief exclaimed,' All the more reason!'
'No, I mean really important,' said the cop with a bit of persistence.

The Chief then asked, 'Who do you have there, the mayor?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'A senator?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'The Prime Minister?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'
'Well,' said the Chief, 'who is it?'

Cop: 'I think it's God!'

The Chief is even more puzzled and curious, 'What makes you think it's God?'

Cop: 'His chauffeur is the Pope!'

That is indeed funny!

On another matter I had wanted to address; the claim has been thrown around that the Apocryphal books of the Bible such as Maccabees had been thrown out of the Protestant Bible by Luther. This is in fact historically incorrect. Actually, such books were only canonized by Catholicism after the Reformation. Otherwise, if Luther was tossing books out of the Bible, Revelations would have doubtlessly been the first to go, as both Luther and Calvin cast doubt on it's worth as scripture.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I was recently asked to explain why I am not a Catholic. My response grew and grew, and so I decided to just start this thread with it.

Well, among the biggest reasons are the following.

I find wholly unscriptural their promotion of Mary to "co-redemptrix", so that Jesus AND Mary save us from our sins -- even though Jesus was God, and He died for our sins, and no mention is given in Scripture of Mary playing a part in that redemption. Jesus' Father is clearly mentioned in several scriptures as being God, while Mary is never given a status beyond that of any human true servant of God, nor is she ever depicted in the Bible in anywhere near the very high way in which she is depicted by the Catholic Church. She was honored to give birth to the Messiah, and the bestowing of that honor was not something earned -- who could earn such an incredible thing, when the Bible says that even our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight? (Is 64:6 "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.") Also, Jer 17:9 -- "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" The Bible is clear throughout that man's goodness amounts to little at best, and is far outshadowed by his evil.

And this problem with unscriptural human deity doesn't end there, by any means. There is praying to the dead, as well. Again, Scripture is clear that we are to pray to God, and that God is a very "jealous God" (mentioned six times in the Bible). Also, prayer to the dead is expressly forbidden (Deut 18:10-12 -- "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.")

Also, works-based salvation is taught, yet Eph 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." And Gal 3:13-14 says, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.' He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Yet, salvation is taught by the Catholic Church to be re-lost and re-gained umpteen times by the works of the sinner. Futher on that same point, "vain repetitions" (such as 20 "Hail Marys" / "Our Fathers") are told us by Christ to avoid (Matt 6:7 "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking"), yet these are prescribed under the Catholic Church.

The pope also dispenses God's grace in Catholicism. Again, Scripture is clear that we pray to God directly, and from Him directly we receive forgiveness and salvation, due solely to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice on the cross.

Also, 1 Peter 3:18 says, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit." Yet, in the eucharist, Christ is said to die again each time.

There's also "And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven" (Matt 23:9).

I also take issue with the Crusades and the Inquisition, as well as with the Catholic Church's multi-century record of hatred of God's Chosen People, the Jews, all the way through the Nazi era, where they sat idly by while millions were slaughtered.

But I know of many admirable Catholics, whom I have no doubt whatsoever are Saved -- and therefore Saved Scripturally, which is through Christ's Grace alone. Sean Hannity is my favorite Catholic -- and when one listens to him talk about his faith, it is clear that he is a Christian who, in his actual beliefs, is not really Catholic. It's the system he's in, and he doesn't want to go through the bother of merely changing that label. I have seen him chafe, though, at the thought of the Pope supposedly being over him in authority.

However, as briefly touched on above, the leadership of the Catholic Church is deliberately perverse in its reading of Scripture.

Actually, it's quite correct. No. There were no early councils that endorsed the 66 books Protestants honor. The current canon of Scripture was affirmed at the Council of Rome in 382 under Pope Damasus, which included all and only the seventy-three books Catholics honor today. This canon was repeated at Hippo and at Carthage (A.D. 393 and 397, respectively) and has been repeated ever since.

It was Martin Luther who tossed out the seven books considered canonical since the beginning of Church history. He also rejected the epistle to the Hebrews and the book of Revelation. He also called the epistle of James "an epistle of straw" because James 2:14–26 conflicted with his personal theology on good works. He also added the word (in his German translation) only in Romans 3:20 and Romans 4:15, and he inserted the word alone in Romans 3:28.

Nonsense; 1 Timothy 2:5 says that we ought to pray for one another. That we should pray for our king's and queen's; that God might intercede on our behalf. The dead also engage with the living for example in Matt 17:3 where Elijah and Moses talk to Christ.

Paul encourages us to pray for each other all the time Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1

and if the Protestants had not cut out Maccabees you would see clear instances of prayer to the dead. We ask the dead to pray for us; Mary included.

The passage you listed does not expressly forbid power within the Church, it is a statement that leaders should be servants. Now I will admit that Catholics do not always get it right but neither does anyone. The authority of Peter is well established; Matthew (16:17‑19), Luke (22:32)and John (21:15‑17). It is however within the apostolic tradition that you will encounter the Bishops and the Papacy etc.

The is no spiritual authority among men. None in Scripture. There are teachers only. No one is spiritually accountable to a certain other who is set in a certain office to be accounted to. That went away went God tore the veil of the Temple in half from the top to the bottom, signifying that there no longer was and no longer needed to be a barrier between God and man, as when God created the Hebrew priesthood to intercede for the people of Israel. Jesus is the only priest we need!

(Sigh) While Luther in his later years had written some very ugly things about Jews, he never had those things put into action, nor did any other Protestant religious or civil leader. Considering that the worst history of Antisemitism was one of violent action, Luther hardly belongs anywhere the top of the list. And while Luther's hateful writings against Jews was used by the Nazis to justify their position, those writings had almost been forgotten till Hitler and friends had dug them up. In no way do any of these Antisemitic writings have any influence on modern American Lutheranism.

And to give you a little history; Luther wrote those things only in later life, after he had more than one catastrophic illness which had left his behavior and thinking erratic. A very good argument for organic brain damage can be made.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

A Xtian forum would be completely peaceful.

I defend the Catholics thus all religiosity is ridiculous and the Catholics are no worse than an other
and since in my experience they are less annoying than Protestants and Evangelicals I like them more.

Obama is going after the banks that have preyed on consumers, got them to take out loan after loan, then pulled the rug out from under them when they couldn't keep up with payments. Payments that were in fact often altered by greedy, heartless lenders.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into the poor, set upon bankers horses**t.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Obama was one of the people that was sueing banks for not making those loans.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=431_1314157066

Obama was one of the people that was sueing banks for not making those loans.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=431_1314157066

The command to abstain from relating with the dead is a command for man. Jesus, being the God who gave the command in the first place, is not bound by it, just as He mentions He is "Lord also of the Sabbath", and thus can treat it as He wishes.

I don't read Maccabees as Scripture; I accept the canon. Also, why would the dead need to pray for us, and what good would it do beyond the living praying for us? (...the latter of which is Scriptural, and very much so.) Christ is our intercessor. (Romans 8; Hebrews 7) And no intercessor among the dead is ever mentioned.

There is no spiritual authority among men. None. In Scripture there are teachers only. No one is spiritually accountable to a certain other who is set in a certain office to be accounted to.