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Vexcalibur
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06 Nov 2011, 7:14 pm

I'd like to put a few points in regards to these protests and rather the reactions to them.

I come from a country which always has protests, it is a slice of life. Protests for wrong reasons, protests for right reasons. Protests against the government, protests in defense of the government, protests in defense of illegal activities. Protests in defense of legal activities. Protests for better rights for the handicapped. Protests for money. Protests against drug dealing. Protests for drug dealing. Protests against violence.

They are all an annoyance and they never accomplish nothing many disturb the public property. Some block streets and highways. Some have been successful and dethroned two presidents. Some have not yet and thus we still have a tyrant in office.

However, I am proud of them. It is part of people's democratic rights to protest.

So, when I read the reactions to occupiers, I cannot help but feel very mad at the non-sense thrown at them.

First of all, you are American, you have had concerts and woodstock and shiot. You have footbal and conventions you have always have large amounts of people disrupting public property. In fact, your civilization almost collapsed one day there was a blackout for 30 minutes in NY. So, I don't really get what's the big deal about protesters 'disrupting' your lives.

Then we have the strange arguments against the protests: "They are achieving NOTHING". Of course they are not. However, is that a reason to disallow people from using their right to protest? Also, many times it seems that a protest is accomplishing nothing but at the end they do.

Another form of opposition is to say "They are marxists. They are radicals. They are anti-patriotic". In short, "They are wrong."... - Of course they are wrong. they definitely are. I mean, really. I do not agree with any of their crap. That is not a reason to oppose to them being able to protest.

The worst reactions though are generalizing them. We found a guy with tons of tatoos and thus that's proof that they are all unemployable and thus it is evil of them to complaint about unemployment. We have seen some of them scream and be violent and thus they are all criminals. Etc, etc, etc. I mean, Maybe... just maybe there is a fraction of them that are perfectly employable and were not able to get a job? It is not like the US is living its brightest economical day. There is a social crisis in the US and you will have to learn to admit it.

So we see images of the police in Oakland and other places being horribly violent to them because they were just blocking the public space? I cannot digest how could a country that presents itself as liking democracy so much would take this so lightly. You are a country that brags of being a democracy and a beacon of democracy in all the world. Your country was founded by rebels that were protesting against a british government and - let's be honest - many of them had ulterior economic motives to it. Just recently we started a whole invasion in Lybia to handle a government that was violent to demonstrators that were clearly violent as well. You will have to learn to admit that people can and are entitled to protest. In this case, they are wrong nuts. However, what will happen when your really have a reason to protest? Should the guys opposing to you be able to put some donations to the police and let them tear gas you into oblivion?


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 06 Nov 2011, 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shrox
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06 Nov 2011, 7:40 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
You are a country that brags of being a democracy and a beacon of democracy in all the world.


That has been a lie for about 30 years now...sorry. The USA incarcerates the largest percentage of it population than any other country. In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole).



AceOfSpades
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06 Nov 2011, 7:45 pm

shrox wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
You are a country that brags of being a democracy and a beacon of democracy in all the world.


That has been a lie for about 30 years now...sorry. The USA incarcerates the largest percentage of it population than any other country. In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole).
Ok how does that make it any less of a democracy? This argument can be made about G-Bay since there is a loss of habeas corpus there, but I don't see how it makes sense when applied to the regular justice system.



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06 Nov 2011, 7:50 pm

shrox wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
You are a country that brags of being a democracy and a beacon of democracy in all the world.
That has been a lie for about 30 years now...sorry. The USA incarcerates the largest percentage of it population than any other country. In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole).
A UK take on that little gem:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI[/youtube]


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Vigilans
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06 Nov 2011, 7:55 pm

shrox wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
You are a country that brags of being a democracy and a beacon of democracy in all the world.


That has been a lie for about 30 years now...sorry. The USA incarcerates the largest percentage of it population than any other country. In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole).


"The US is a Republic, not a Democracy"


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Master_Pedant
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06 Nov 2011, 8:29 pm

--- blanked -----


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Last edited by Master_Pedant on 07 Nov 2011, 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

shrox
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06 Nov 2011, 8:31 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
shrox wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
You are a country that brags of being a democracy and a beacon of democracy in all the world.


That has been a lie for about 30 years now...sorry. The USA incarcerates the largest percentage of it population than any other country. In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole).
Ok how does that make it any less of a democracy? This argument can be made about G-Bay since there is a loss of habeas corpus there, but I don't see how it makes sense when applied to the regular justice system.


The statistic certainly makes "land of the free" less valid though I would say. Freedom is associated with democracy.



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06 Nov 2011, 10:43 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
I'd like to ask Vex what planet he lives on. Before the Occupy movement, the chattering classes were talking about how deep austerity would need to be, how reckless household/government spending was responsible for all of the economies woes, etc. After the Occupy WallStreet Movement gained steam, people in the US and even in Canada started to recall "oh, yeah, a financial crisis instigated by reckless behaviour on WallStreet's what started all this". Please don't let general misanthropy cloud your judgement.


I've pointed out several times that what you're saying is utterly ridiculous. It was Government Regulations that caused this mess. Specifically regulations that forced banks to issue loans to people that couldn't afford them.



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06 Nov 2011, 11:33 pm

I'd like to what the goals of the OWS movement are. Handouts? Jobs? Affirmation?

(Personally, I've thought all along that they wanted a share of some or all of the billionaire's wealth, but I could be wrong.)

How can the success or failure of their movement be measured if even they don't know what they want?



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06 Nov 2011, 11:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
I'd like to what the goals of the OWS movement are. Handouts? Jobs? Affirmation?

(Personally, I've thought all along that they wanted a share of some or all of the billionaire's wealth, but I could be wrong.)

How can the success or failure of their movement be measured if even they don't know what they want?


Some want to end corporate person-hood. 8O
But mostly they want increased Corporate responsibility, End to Bailouts,
End to Socialism for the Corporations and increased anti-trust.
My take on it in my time at the protest was it was more anti-bank, anti-corporate
than anti-rich.

I think the Corporation documentary prolly sums it up.
and it is on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pin8fbdGV9Y&list=PLFA50FBC214A6CE87&index=1&feature=plpp_video


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06 Nov 2011, 11:50 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I'd like to what the goals of the OWS movement are. Handouts? Jobs? Affirmation? (Personally, I've thought all along that they wanted a share of some or all of the billionaire's wealth, but I could be wrong.) How can the success or failure of their movement be measured if even they don't know what they want?
... end corporate person-hood ... increased Corporate responsibility ... End to Bailouts ... End to Socialism for the Corporations ... increased anti-trust ...

So, have they achieved any of these goals?



Vexcalibur
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06 Nov 2011, 11:53 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
I'd like to ask Vex what planet he lives on. Before the Occupy movement, the chattering classes were talking about how deep austerity would need to be, how reckless household/government spending was responsible for all of the economies woes, etc. After the Occupy WallStreet Movement gained steam, people in the US and even in Canada started to recall "oh, yeah, a financial crisis instigated by reckless behaviour on WallStreet's what started all this". Please don't let general misanthropy cloud your judgement.
I don't see how is this a counterargument for anything I said.


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 06 Nov 2011, 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JakobVirgil
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06 Nov 2011, 11:54 pm

Fnord wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I'd like to what the goals of the OWS movement are. Handouts? Jobs? Affirmation? (Personally, I've thought all along that they wanted a share of some or all of the billionaire's wealth, but I could be wrong.) How can the success or failure of their movement be measured if even they don't know what they want?
... end corporate person-hood ... increased Corporate responsibility ... End to Bailouts ... End to Socialism for the Corporations ... increased anti-trust ...

So, have they achieved any of these goals?


:lmao:
of course not but maybe they will push Barry towards a less big business sycophantic position.
Small business is the backbone of our country screw the big guys.
BTW thanks for the points of ellipses they look sharp.


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Inuyasha
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06 Nov 2011, 11:56 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
Fnord wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I'd like to what the goals of the OWS movement are. Handouts? Jobs? Affirmation? (Personally, I've thought all along that they wanted a share of some or all of the billionaire's wealth, but I could be wrong.) How can the success or failure of their movement be measured if even they don't know what they want?
... end corporate person-hood ... increased Corporate responsibility ... End to Bailouts ... End to Socialism for the Corporations ... increased anti-trust ...

So, have they achieved any of these goals?


:lmao:
of course not but maybe they will push Barry towards a less big business sycophantic position.
Small business is the backbone of our country screw the big guys.
BTW thanks for the points of ellipses they look sharp.


Barry is only for business when they are giving him campaign donations, otherwise he does his best to try to shut them down.



Vexcalibur
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06 Nov 2011, 11:57 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
I've pointed out several times that what you're saying is utterly ridiculous. It was Government Regulations that caused this mess. Specifically regulations that forced banks to issue loans to people that couldn't afford them.


The poor bank owner/puppies :(

Seriously dude. The reason you've pointed that tale out several times and no one is believing you is because it is utter non-sense. Regardless, the poor bank owners should be more than happy after so many bailouts.


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07 Nov 2011, 12:03 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
I'd like to ask Vex what planet he lives on. Before the Occupy movement, the chattering classes were talking about how deep austerity would need to be, how reckless household/government spending was responsible for all of the economies woes, etc. After the Occupy WallStreet Movement gained steam, people in the US and even in Canada started to recall "oh, yeah, a financial crisis instigated by reckless behaviour on WallStreet's what started all this". Please don't let general misanthropy cloud your judgement.
I don't see how is this a counterargument for anything I said.


I have to admit that I really didn't read the post.


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