Nation of Israel and God
kxmode
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Despite the possible backlash I felt compelled to post this. Try and read it with an open mind. I spent four hours putting this together and I tried to pay attention to the wording so that it doesn't sound insulting.
For anyone wondering if the nation of Israel is still God's chosen people the best resource is the Bible, specifically the Old Testament. In it we find the answer. 600 years before the Messiah's appearance God tells Jeremiah (or Yirmiyahu as his name is called in Hebrew) that he would reject them at Jeremiah 31:31-37. Really pay attention to language Jehovah (or Yahweh as his name is pronounced in Hebrew) uses.
33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”
34 “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.”
35 This is what Jehovah, the Giver of the sun for light by day, the statutes of the moon and the stars for light by night, the One stirring up the sea that its waves may become boisterous, the One whose name is Jehovah of armies, has said: 36 “‘If these regulations could be removed from before me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘those who are the seed of Israel could likewise cease from proving to be a nation before me always.’”
37 This is what Jehovah has said: “‘If the heavens up above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below could be searched out, I myself also could reject the entire seed of Israel on account of all that they have done,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”
In the eighth chapter of Hebrews Paul explains Jeremiah's prophetic words in relation to Jesus as the chief cornerstone of the new covenant (quoted at Jeremiah 31:31 above):
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second; 8 for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.”
10 “‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.
11 “‘And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: “Know Jehovah!” For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. 12 For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.’”
13 In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.
And so it has. Thousands of years later the nation of Israel is NOT the same it was during Jesus' time or even during Jeremiah's time. At odds with many and living with virtually no peace it has "vanished away" and is a shell of its former self.
for over 1500 years the ancient nation of Israel kept turning away from Jehovah towards false worship despite repeated attempts to get them to change their ways. By their actions alone they voided their former covenant with God. They were warned what would happened if they didn't keep their oath to that covenant. (Deut chapter 30) Jehovah decided well in advance that he would "reject the entire seed of Israel on account of all that they have done". Since Jehovah is a progressive God he would take steps to conclude a new covenant, not with a specific nation, but with individuals who he would draw to him. (John 6:44; 1 Corinthians 3:6) The one who would be chief cornerstone of this new covenant would be none other than the messiah, Jesus Christ. As Paul explains Jesus would become like Melchizedek; the only time in Israelite history when a king was chosen directly by God to serve as a priest.
Jehovah would write his laws in the hearts of those he chooses and they would obey him and do his will. (Hebrews 10:16) And because the law is written in their hearts they would truly love Jehovah. This "spiritual" Israel would NOT exist as a literal place or nation but as a gathering of people out of all nations, races, languages, and cultures all united under a single purpose: to serve Jehovah and to do his will. Today the spiritual Israel is a small group of Jehovah Witnesses. I know you're thinking "yeah right, whatever!" They say actions speak louder than words, or as James 2:26 reads "faith without works is dead." It can rightly be said by our actions we show that we truly are witnesses of Jehovah. (Isaiah 43:10) We model ourselves after the first century Christians. Like those first century Christians we serve our great God Jehovah. We try our best to live our imperfect lives by Bible principles. We also carrying out God's will in preaching the good news about his kingdom like the first century Christians and Jesus did over 1,900 years ago. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20) And no matter how spiritually dead the world seems to be (2 Timothy 3:1-5) our love for Jehovah and the desire to do his will won't fade.
I am in no way providing this information to show any sort of superiority. I am merely showing the relationship between the old testament and the new testament and how they relate to the new covenant, which basically replaced the old covenant.
Hebrew reference.
Other references:
http://www.breslov.com/bible/Jeremiah31.htm#31
http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/bible/mirmi031.html#31
http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/bible/hirmi031.html#31
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16028
_________________
A Proud Witness of Jehovah God (JW.org)
Revelation 21:4 "And [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes,
and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."
leejosepho
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
What difference might the knowledge of atoms have made anyway?
Like Erma Bombeck once said, "Many are called, but few get up!"
Some folks were initially chosen to bear witness, and now anyone, including any of them, who (still) stands can be part of doing that ...
"Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness ... of
"Thy Power [to deliver, as from Egypt],
"Thy Love [in provision, as in the desert], and
"Thy Way of life [in Torah fellowship and worship]."
("A.A.", the book, page 63 (Step Three))
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================
What is God trying to say in Jeremiah 31--37 ?
When Robert Goulet sang "if ever I would leave you it would never be in springtime, summer, winter, or fall!" he didnt have to worry about them inventing a fifth season.
But God is either misspeaking, or he's making a startling prophecy in that last paragraph of Jeremiah 31, by saying "he would abandon the Jewish people for what they did if the heavens were ever measured and and if the foundations of the earth were searched out."
Is he is predicting the future Age of Exploration ( Magellan and Captain Cook actually observing the limits and diminsions of the Earth), and the still later discoveries by the Hubble Telescope (actually measuring the size of the heavens)?
Is he saying that at a future time in history "your contract is up". And is he using future discoveries as a benchmark for when that might be?
Or was he just waxing poetic about how he would never leave his chosen people for any reason (like Robert Goulet singing to his lover) and he just underestimated how much of the Univerese humans were destined to explore?
If its the latter then there is a problem: how could God make a blunder like that if he knows everything?
What difference might the knowledge of atoms have made anyway?
Knowing what the world -really- is is useful. Reading a 3000 year old book of fables does not do much good.
ruveyn
Kxmode -- your amazingly fine-tooth comb of research somehow missed all the restoration prophecies of Israel -- and not some kind of "new Israel", as you imply, but rather a "new covenant" (Jer 31) -- a covenant with, simply, "Israel". There is no new Israel in the Bible. Feel free to cite verses that you think mean a new Israel, and I'll be happy to explain. (If you're right about modern Israel being invalid, so is Ahmadinejad.) God clearly promises he'll restore "Israel" in ways which refer to the physical land itself -- even though they broke their end of the bargain. Yahweh's love and faithfulness are not conditional. You'd be thinking of Allah for that. No, Yahweh said, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer 31:34). That is a loving attitude. Would He say to the Jews, "Nope, you blew your one and only chance, so goodbye" and then turn around to Christians and say, "you can sin over and over and you're forgiven"? That would be a rather prejudiced, anti-Semitic God -- for an all-knowing God who specifically selected and created the Jews through a complex process beginning with His call to Abraham to leave his own people so that God could create a new people from him.
Anyone who attempts to separate God from Israel, and prove many tyrants from Pharoah to Hitler right in that view, enters fantasyland. You shouldn't have wasted four hours in that futile pursuit.
Jer 29:14
"I will be found by you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”
Is 11:11
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.
Jer 30:16-24
“‘But all who devour you will be devoured;
all your enemies will go into exile.
Those who plunder you will be plundered;
all who make spoil of you I will despoil.
17 But I will restore you to health
and heal your wounds,’
declares the LORD,
‘because you are called an outcast,
Zion for whom no one cares.’
18 “This is what the LORD says:
“‘I will restore the fortunes of Jacob’s tents
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city will be rebuilt on her ruins,
and the palace will stand in its proper place.
19 From them will come songs of thanksgiving
and the sound of rejoicing.
I will add to their numbers,
and they will not be decreased;
I will bring them honor,
and they will not be disdained.
20 Their children will be as in days of old,
and their community will be established before me;
I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their leader will be one of their own;
their ruler will arise from among them.
I will bring him near and he will come close to me—
for who is he who will devote himself
to be close to me?’
declares the LORD.
22 “‘So you will be my people,
and I will be your God.’”
23 See, the storm of the LORD
will burst out in wrath,
a driving wind swirling down
on the heads of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand this.
Is 61:4
They will rebuild the ancient ruins
and restore the places long devastated;
they will renew the ruined cities
that have been devastated for generations.
Is 61:1-4
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,[a]
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of joy
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness,
a planting of the LORD
for the display of his splendor.
4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins
and restore the places long devastated;
they will renew the ruined cities
that have been devastated for generations.
Ez 34:14
And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
Ez 37:21
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
Jer 32:37-40
37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Jer 46:27
But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Some of these refer to different captivities and dispersions of the people of Israel (including the extra-long one in the period before the mid-1900s), but note God's attitude toward His people in every single one.
And as for God being "progressive"...
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6
Romans 11:1-2
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
And, finally, the clincher:
Amos 9:14-15
14 "And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them," saith the LORD thy God.
It is clear throughout Scripture that God's historical negative treatment of Israel was His righteous anger and punishment to bring about a change in them, not hate.
Last edited by Ragtime on 12 Nov 2011, 12:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.
what about
Hosea 1:9
"You are not my people and I will not be your God."
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
Hosea 1:9
"You are not my people and I will not be your God."
The two verses after that one answer it:
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not my people', there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'
11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land."
Hosea 1:9
"You are not my people and I will not be your God."
The two verses after that one answer it:
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not my people', there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'
11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land."
no it most certainly does not verse 9 is the end of the chapter.
there are no verses 10 and 11 in Hebrew.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
Hosea 1:9
"You are not my people and I will not be your God."
The two verses after that one answer it:
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not my people', there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'
11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land."
no it most certainly does not verse 9 is the end of the chapter.
there are no verses 10 and 11 in Hebrew.
Who added the two extra verses?
Hosea 1:9
"You are not my people and I will not be your God."
The two verses after that one answer it:
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not my people', there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'
11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land."
no it most certainly does not verse 9 is the end of the chapter.
there are no verses 10 and 11 in Hebrew.
Who added the two extra verses?
I would guess the same guy that wrote Hosea chapter 2.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
Last edited by JakobVirgil on 12 Nov 2011, 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ruveyn
It's you that I often try to take seriously. Sometimes I can, but it's hard to figure where you're coming from a lot of the time. We understand what you don't believe in, but the other is hard to figure.
ruveyn
Why read a 21st century internet post from someone that can't explain dark matter?
Last edited by shrox on 12 Nov 2011, 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ruveyn
Could you stop slinging stuff at us? Maybe make a grand post about how you don't believe and how rational this makes you, and how we are idiots not worthy of your attention,, then shut up about it, OK?
ruveyn
Could you stop slinging stuff at us? Maybe make a grand post about how you don't believe and how rational this makes you, and how we are idiots not worthy of your attention,, then shut up about it, OK?
Y'all should read ruveyn a little more closely you will find that he is a bit more complicated than a generic
Atheist. He is an Observant Jew for example.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
