Can a two state solution work for Israel and Palestine ?

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mikecartwright
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20 Nov 2011, 9:39 pm

Can a two state solution work for Israel and Palestine why or why not ? My view is that it can never work because there is always a chance of war happening between the two states and a chance of the Israelis occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution



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20 Nov 2011, 9:41 pm

It will be rough around the edges for a while, but eventually everyone finds someone else to hate


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20 Nov 2011, 10:07 pm

It will eventually work if none of the major players in the middle east collapse. The biggest problem with the two-state solution is that both parties want the same land--Jerusalem. So when both sides see reason and come up with a compromise, say, making Jerusalem international territory so everyone has the right and the ability to access it, then a two state solution can become feasible.



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20 Nov 2011, 11:05 pm

Gotta better idea?



visagrunt
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21 Nov 2011, 1:04 pm

"There's no sense asking if the air is good if there's nothing else to breathe."
--James Goldman, The Lion in Winter

Can it work? That's hardly the point. Can anything else work. If not, then we must make sure that it does work.


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21 Nov 2011, 1:22 pm

mikecartwright wrote:
Can a two state solution work for Israel and Palestine why or why not ? My view is that it can never work because there is always a chance of war happening between the two states and a chance of the Israelis occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution


No.

A one-state or bi-national solution, given the reality of Israeli settlements eating up deep into the Occupied Territories, is a lot more workable.


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Tequila
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21 Nov 2011, 3:49 pm

Obligatory Pat Condell vid:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1N1zhUm84w[/youtube]

Quote:
Is it racist to criticise the Palestinians as the world's most tiresome crybabies with a bogus cause and a plight that's entirely self-inflicted? I bet it is. I wouldn't be surprised if it was against the law in certain European countries. But I'm going to do it anyway because somebody has to. And I realise I'll probably lose a few friends with this video, but that's OK. Friends like that I can do without. All any of us can do is to tell the truth as we see it. I mean as we actually see it, and not as we think we're supposed to see it. The worst thing you can do is to see the truth and to tell a lie, and I see the Palestinian cause as a lie. A lie designed to exploit western liberal guilt like the lie of Islamophobia and the lie of the mythical religion of peace that nobody has ever seen in action. I used to be a lot more critical of Israel, and I used to believe there was a fairly simple two state solution because I used to believe the Arabs were acting in good faith. I still want to believe that, but the evidence tells me I'd be a fool to believe it. I've seen that every concession that Israel makes is met with more demands and more excuses not to negotiate. They could have had peace ten times over if they wanted it, but they don't want peace, they want victory, and they won't be happy until Israel is wiped from the map. A member of Fatah's central committee said as much on TV recently, but, as he said, they keep that to themselves and tell the rest of the world a different story. And, as part of that story, the bogus claim for Palestinian statehood is currently passing through the United Nations, and we're all waiting to see what plops out the other end.

Not that is really matters, because, despite what the Palestinian public relations industry (i.e. the western media) might tell you, this is not about territory and it certainly isn't about justice or human rights because Arab societies don't know the meaning of those words. It's about Jew hatred as mandated by the Koran and as preached in the mosques and taught to the children in Arab countries day in and day out, generation after poisoned generation. The Arabs don't hate Jews because of Israel. They hate Israel because of Jews.

The situation in the West Bank and Gaza exists because 45 years ago several Arab countries attacked Israel unprovoked with overwhelming odds, because it was a Jewish state. If it hadn't been a Jewish state, they wouldn't have attacked it. And they attacked with the intention of wiping it from the map and committing genocide, but they failed because the Jews had a bit more steel in their blood than the Arabs had bargained for. And who could be surprised after what they had been through, and after seeing how the rest of the world had responded to their plight? Large numbers of Jews could have escaped the Nazis if they'd had somewhere else to go, but other countries wouldn't let them in. The Mufti of Jerusalem at the time was a friend of Hitler's, and, good Muslim that he was, he approved of the final solution and had plans for his own holocaust in the Middle East once the Nazis had won the war. So who can blame the Israelis today for defending themselves as if they mean it when they're dealing with people they know they can't trust and who they know hate them enough to want to exterminate them as a people? Anybody else in their situation would behave the same way. I know I would, and I wouldn't apologise for it.

Israel is surrounded by enemies. Peace is more in their interest than in anyone else's, which is why they keep making concessions. But it's not in the interest of the Palestinian leadership. Peace is the last thing they want. They need to keep the pot boiling. They need to keep their people angry and resentful and hating Jews. Peace would ruin everything, because they won't be happy until Israel is wiped from the map and the Jews have been driven into the sea. If they really believe that's going to happen they're insane. And if they don't really believe it, they're even more insane, wouldn't you say?

And all you good-hearted western liberals who keep banging the drum for the poor Palestinians, I sympathise with you because you're doing it for the right reasons, but you're being used and exploited, just as the people in the West Bank and Gaza are being exploited, by people who have no intention of negotiating peace because they're driven primarily by crude irrational religious hatred. When you protest for Palestine you know you'll be in the company of people calling for Jews to be gassed. Do you think that's an accident? You're dealing with something here beyond politics and beyond reason. Something truly ugly that drives a spike through all your cosy left/right assumptions, and your naivete is helping to stoke it like bellows to a fire. The world needs to stop pretending that Palestine is about justice and human rights, and have the moral courage to call this thing what it is, to put a stop to this charade, this endless dance around a non-existent negotiating table. We need to do the Arabs a huge favour and tell them the truth they so badly need to hear, that their hatred is the cause of their misery. They've become prisoners of it. It has come to define their very identity. And, until they can find a way to remove this ugly stain from their hearts, they'll always be chained to it, and they and their children will never be free, Arab spring or no Arab spring.

Peace. How many wasted generations of hate do you think it will take?



Last edited by Tequila on 21 Nov 2011, 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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21 Nov 2011, 4:26 pm

And another Pat Condell vid, this time about Palestinians and the West:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeGYAfh9A1k[/youtube]

Quote:
Well, incredibly, I'm still getting a very heated response to my video about the phoney Palestinian cause and the rabid anti-Semitism that drives it. Quite a lot of shouty upper case emails calling me a Zionist shill, a Shabbos goy (that's a good one, isn't it?), and of course all the usual favourites - Nazi, racist, and so on. It's getting so that if I don't get called a racist now at least once a day I begin to worry that I may be doing something wrong, so please keep it up, folks. You're doing a great job, and this video is just for you.

Predictably, nowhere in this blizzard of spittle-flecked abuse has anybody bothered to address the central point of the video, which is that irrational Islamic Jew hatred is the root cause of the problem in the Middle East, and you would have to be blind or politically constipated (in other words, an Islamised leftie) not to see that, or not to want to see it. It's often said, because it's true, that if the Arabs laid down their weapons there would be peace; if the Jews laid down their weapons they would be massacred, because the Arabs (that's the Muslim Arabs for all you hair-splitters out there) don't want peace, they want the Jews dead. They could have their own state by now if they wanted it. They don't want it. They want an end to the Jewish state. And thanks to their religion (the religion of peace) they have the same delusions of manifest destiny in this regard and the same grisly agenda as Hitler. If they had the wherewithal they would commit genocide today. They wouldn't wait until tomorrow. It's not even a secret. Thanks to the internet, we can all now see the kind of stuff that's regularly broadcast on Arab TV, praising the Holocaust and demonising Jews in disgusting ways that would be illegal in any civilised country. We know how much the Arabs hate Jews. They can't stop talking about it. They drum it into their children for all the world to see, brainwashing them into becoming suicide bombers. We can see little three year-olds being taught that Jews are apes and pigs, and how glorious it is to be an Islamic martyr and kill yourself to kill Jews. And that's what you support when you support the Palestinians, and you're going to have to live with your conscience - that's if you can find one, because we all know that when operating from the twisted moral perspective of the Islamised political left, having a conscience, or a backbone for that matter, isn't always possible.

Like all things Islamic, the Palestinians have long been officially above criticism in the West, and the terrorists of Hamas have plenty of friends, especially in places like Norway and Sweden whose governments and media seem to hate Israel almost as much as they hate their own countries. Although Jew hatred has always been part of European culture, thanks largely to the Catholic Church, Norway and Sweden are now getting serious reputations as almost Islamically anti-Semitic. Obviously that doesn't apply to everybody in those countries, but it does apply to the governments and the media who control and who slant the information people get, and who do their best to demonise Israel out of all proportion to reality in the minds of the people. And the people? It's a curious thing about the western world in general, nobody trusts the media, yet everybody believes what the media tell them So, although I sometimes get the feeling that half the people in the West would almost applaud if Iran were to attack Israel with a nuclear bomb, in Norway and Sweden, god bless them, they'd probably hold street parties.

So it was no surprise to me that these two were among the western countries who shamefully refused to boycott the recent UN anti-racism hatefest, Durban III, where some of the world's most vile racists, child murderers, child rapists, slavers, war criminals, terrorist funders, and serial human rights violators got together to slander and vilify a genuine democracy where Arabs have more rights than they do in any Arab country, including the ones supposedly liberated in the so-called Arab spring. Like Libya, where they've announced that their new constitution will be based on sharia (sorry girls, no liberation for you) and where, true to form, they've already started torturing and murdering people. Oh, and they've also made it known that Jews (not Israelis, Jews) will not be welcome in the new Libya, surprise surprise. Next door in Egypt where, since the revolution, hundreds of Christians have been murdered in the streets by the army for the crime of not being Muslims, if those wretched people have anything to be grateful for it's for the fact that they're not Jewish, because, if they were, none of them would be left alive.

And that's what you support when you support the Palestinians, because it's not about Israel; it's about Jews. In universities all over the western world Muslim Brotherhood front groups are allowed to spread their anti-Semitic poison unchecked while anyone defending Israel is shouted down or barred from access altogether, because students who have been Islamised don't like free speech. Whenever Israel defends itself from terrorism we see armies of self-righteous left-wing bubble heads marching through European cities holding banners that read "We are all Hamas now", as if that's something to be proud of. If those banners were honest they would read "We are all religious hate mongers, "racists and murderers now who put no value on human life "because our minds are pickled in a barbaric religion and we are completely insane." Actually, that's a bit of a mouthful, isn't it? So maybe the last bit could go on a separate banner or something. Or why not simply cut to the chase and put "Death to Jews", because that's what you support when you support the Palestinians. You are being used as a hand puppet by the Muslim Brotherhood because you've chosen to believe the lie of the apartheid state without bothering to examine the evidence. You're bought a propaganda campaign Goebbels would have been proud of, and what you're actually doing is supporting an Islamic war of extermination against Jews. And if you measure yourself by the same stringent standards that you left-wing hypocrites love to apply to others, then it follows that you are a racist with blood on your hands. No offence.



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22 Nov 2011, 1:11 am

A two state solution would mean that all the Arab states would be divided into 2 states.



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23 Nov 2011, 3:35 pm

If the Berlin Wall could fall in 1989, yes.



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24 Nov 2011, 4:32 am

It's known as stonewalling. The Arabs do it well.