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Why do some people have religious beliefs?

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AngelRho
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07 Feb 2012, 4:27 pm

abacacus wrote:
The reason I say holy books don't work, is because then Islam would be right, so would Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, the ancient Egyptian gods, basically every religion is proven correct... they have their own holy books (or in some cases oral traditions, even if you ignore those the odds are still pointed toward you being wrong). Basically, you can't use a religion to prove that religions god exists... it's an incredibly biased source for one *and* you end up with equal evidence for multiple viewpoints.

Are you with me so far?

Holy books ARE evidence, though. Yes, I'm with you, but I disagree. All one has to do is argue that not all holy books are equal. All you can really say is that holy books can all equally be held up to scrutiny.

Now, if you're truly open to the idea that there is a God and you're genuinely searching for the right one, just examine the claims of each holy book and make a decision as to whether those claims seem to have merit.

What, for example, are Ra's attributes? What did he "do"? Are there good reasons why people abandoned worship of Ra?

What are the claims of Islam?

What are the claims of Judaism? Bear in mind that Rabbinic Judaism is NOT the same religion followed by the ancient Israelites.

Incidentally, I've had a good friend several years ago who used to try to debate me on the merits of Christianity. I never felt the need to attack his beliefs but did feel more comfortable answering his questions and attacks on mine. He was neo-pagan and actually did include Ra as one of his gods. So I'm not pretending that Ra has NO followers now, but rather pointing to the fact that Ra worship and ancient Egyptian religion as a whole is largely a thing of the past with perhaps a tiny number attempting to revive it.



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07 Feb 2012, 4:37 pm

AngelRho wrote:
People 2000 years ago believed that unusual events could occur under demonic influence or sleight-of-hand tricks. People nowadays don't go to magic shows to see supernatural forces at work. They know the act is fake. They go to be amazed at the skill of the performer--the wonderment of "how did he DO that???"


Here's an interesting case study.

How many people do you think witnessed Jesus performing miracles? Less than a million, right?

Well, there are literally millions of people alive right now who claim to have witnessed this guy perform miracles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba

Doesn't that mean that the evidence for this cult is better than the evidence for Christianity?



abacacus
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07 Feb 2012, 4:40 pm

The claims of Ra and the Egyptian gods essentially mirrors that of Christianity. So does Islam (Allah and God are the same being, and Jesus features prominently in the Koran).

The Egyptian gods died because the Egyptian culture died as well. Much like how Christianity destroyed the ancient Romans religion :wink:

Modern day Judaism I'm not as well versed on, Jews leave me alone and don't try to tell me how to live my life on threats of eternal torture unlike Christians and Muslims.

None of this in any way shows us that holy books are evidence of a god existing. They are evidence that someone was superstitious enough and productive enough to come up with an explanation for their own existence, which is something people have been doing ever since we developed far enough to have such deep thoughts.


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07 Feb 2012, 4:47 pm

AngelRho wrote:
What, for example, are Ra's attributes? What did he "do"? Are there good reasons why people abandoned worship of Ra?


Ra was replaced by Jesus, who was later replaced by Allah / Mohammed for the most part. Judging by the religious history of Egypt, the supreme religion would be Sunni Islam.



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07 Feb 2012, 4:53 pm

abacacus wrote:
The claims of Ra and the Egyptian gods essentially mirrors that of Christianity.

How?

abacacus wrote:
So does Islam (Allah and God are the same being, and Jesus features prominently in the Koran).

Again, how? Islam does not treat Jesus as the Messiah, so its claims do not match Christianity.

abacacus wrote:
The Egyptian gods died because the Egyptian culture died as well. Much like how Christianity destroyed the ancient Romans religion :wink:

Sometimes the winners deserve to win. If Ra, wouldn't it make sense he'd be powerful enough to preserve a religion in his name?

abacacus wrote:
Modern day Judaism I'm not as well versed on, Jews leave me alone and don't try to tell me how to live my life on threats of eternal torture unlike Christians and Muslims.

lol

I'm not that familiar with it either except to say that it is a preservation of the tradition that existed shortly after the time of Christ following the destruction of the Temple. Pharisaic religion was highly ritualistic and legalistic. Attitudes since those times have largely changed, but it is impossible to practice the kind of Yahweh-worship indicated by scripture.

abacacus wrote:
None of this in any way shows us that holy books are evidence of a god existing.

None of this is in any way intended to. For the purpose of this discussion, you're assuming that God exists, remember?

abacacus wrote:
They are evidence that someone was superstitious enough and productive enough to come up with an explanation for their own existence,

You don't KNOW that.

abacacus wrote:
which is something people have been doing ever since we developed far enough to have such deep thoughts.

So you would say that it is impossible that all religions could have developed from a common tradition that very well might have included an actual experience with God Himself? What evidence do you have that God never revealed Himself to anyone in any way?



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07 Feb 2012, 4:53 pm

abacacus wrote:
(Allah and God are the same being, and Jesus features prominently in the Koran).


Not really. The Christian god is a trinity (Yahweh, Jesus, and some guy called the holy spirit). Christian trinity god never sent a flying horse to a guy called Mohammed and never had a chat with him.

Allah didn't impregnate Mary and didn't have a demigod son called Jesus. The Muslim Jesus was merely a human prophet.

And while I'm at it, the god of Judaism is the original Yahweh, not Christian trinity god. Torah Yahweh also never had a son called Jesus.

Those are three different gods, imho. They have a few traits in common, but there are also some major differences.



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07 Feb 2012, 4:57 pm

AngelRho wrote:
abacacus wrote:
The Egyptian gods died because the Egyptian culture died as well. Much like how Christianity destroyed the ancient Romans religion :wink:

Sometimes the winners deserve to win. If Ra, wouldn't it make sense he'd be powerful enough to preserve a religion in his name?


That argument cuts both ways though. Egypt was predominantly Christian from the 4th century until the Islamic conquest in 640 CE. Today 90% of the Egyptian population are Sunni Muslims. Was Jesus not powerful enough?



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07 Feb 2012, 5:13 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
abacacus wrote:
The Egyptian gods died because the Egyptian culture died as well. Much like how Christianity destroyed the ancient Romans religion :wink:

Sometimes the winners deserve to win. If Ra, wouldn't it make sense he'd be powerful enough to preserve a religion in his name?


That argument cuts both ways though. Egypt was predominantly Christian from the 4th century until the Islamic conquest in 640 CE. Today 90% of the Egyptian population are Sunni Muslims. Was Jesus not powerful enough?


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07 Feb 2012, 5:30 pm

AngelRho wrote:
[
None of this is in any way intended to. For the purpose of this discussion, you're assuming that God exists, remember?


Ah. That's the hang up.

I am assuming that *a* god exists. Not your god. Just a god. I have not conceded to you in any way that the Christian god exists.

You have to convince me of that still, and as of yet you haven't made a single argument that is even remotely persuasive. As it stands right now, I am completely unconvinced that I should even consider the Christian god as a possibility, because someone who believes in him can't even bring themselves to put forth any evidence...


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07 Feb 2012, 6:31 pm

abacacus wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
[
None of this is in any way intended to. For the purpose of this discussion, you're assuming that God exists, remember?


Ah. That's the hang up.

I am assuming that *a* god exists. Not your god. Just a god. I have not conceded to you in any way that the Christian god exists.

You have to convince me of that still, and as of yet you haven't made a single argument that is even remotely persuasive. As it stands right now, I am completely unconvinced that I should even consider the Christian god as a possibility, because someone who believes in him can't even bring themselves to put forth any evidence...


Do consider as well that the vast majority of gods conjured by the human mind are quite simply more interesting than that jealous sadistic little diva of the Bible.


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07 Feb 2012, 7:33 pm

I haven't gotten that far yet Wiggen :lol:


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AngelRho
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07 Feb 2012, 7:44 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
abacacus wrote:
The Egyptian gods died because the Egyptian culture died as well. Much like how Christianity destroyed the ancient Romans religion :wink:

Sometimes the winners deserve to win. If Ra, wouldn't it make sense he'd be powerful enough to preserve a religion in his name?


That argument cuts both ways though. Egypt was predominantly Christian from the 4th century until the Islamic conquest in 640 CE. Today 90% of the Egyptian population are Sunni Muslims. Was Jesus not powerful enough?

But Christianity is still active throughout the world. Jesus never guaranteed that His would be a popular movement. It happens to be in some regions, but Jesus instead predicted that Christians could expect persecution. It should come as no surprise that Christians be in the minority or even non-existent in some places.

Ra, by comparison, doesn't even have that, with maybe the exception of a few New Agers, neo-pagans, and fantasy revivalists. And that's just speculation. It would be interesting to see actual numbers of people genuinely claiming to be--what? Neo-Egyptians? *shrug*

Judaism shows no signs of disappearing yet, and Yahweh worship seems to predate the nation of Israel. And given the availability of Yahweh to all people through the life and teachings of Christ, it seems obvious to me Yahweh at least has better staying power than Ra.



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07 Feb 2012, 7:48 pm

AngelRho, the Egyptians did not make a great effort to export their Gods. Almost opposite to Christianity and its proselytizing. However when you look at Egypt you can see that Christianity was pretty easily swept aside by Islam. There isn't anything inherently superior about it


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07 Feb 2012, 11:01 pm

Vigilans wrote:
AngelRho, the Egyptians did not make a great effort to export their Gods. Almost opposite to Christianity and its proselytizing. However when you look at Egypt you can see that Christianity was pretty easily swept aside by Islam. There isn't anything inherently superior about it

But "nothing inherently superior about it" is not an argument for why a Christian should abandon his faith in favor of something else. "Easily swept aside" just means that it is a religion in which many of its adherents practice as a matter of convenience and are easily swayed under the threat of force. Persecution and martyrdom are well-known in Christianity. Islam still has not succeeded in globally wiping it out. And even if it had come close to doing so it proves nothing except that Islam is a religion of bullies.

Note: I'm not saying Islam IS a religion of bullies. I'm just saying it would be under those circumstances. This is not intended as a slur against Muslims who embrace peaceful coexistence with people of other faiths.



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07 Feb 2012, 11:12 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
AngelRho, the Egyptians did not make a great effort to export their Gods. Almost opposite to Christianity and its proselytizing. However when you look at Egypt you can see that Christianity was pretty easily swept aside by Islam. There isn't anything inherently superior about it

But "nothing inherently superior about it" is not an argument for why a Christian should abandon his faith in favor of something else. "Easily swept aside" just means that it is a religion in which many of its adherents practice as a matter of convenience and are easily swayed under the threat of force. Persecution and martyrdom are well-known in Christianity. Islam still has not succeeded in globally wiping it out. And even if it had come close to doing so it proves nothing except that Islam is a religion of bullies.

Note: I'm not saying Islam IS a religion of bullies. I'm just saying it would be under those circumstances. This is not intended as a slur against Muslims who embrace peaceful coexistence with people of other faiths.

wait, how is Christianity less of bullying religion, considering the vast numbers of people who were literally forced to convert or die?


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AngelRho
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07 Feb 2012, 11:14 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
AngelRho, the Egyptians did not make a great effort to export their Gods. Almost opposite to Christianity and its proselytizing. However when you look at Egypt you can see that Christianity was pretty easily swept aside by Islam. There isn't anything inherently superior about it

But "nothing inherently superior about it" is not an argument for why a Christian should abandon his faith in favor of something else. "Easily swept aside" just means that it is a religion in which many of its adherents practice as a matter of convenience and are easily swayed under the threat of force. Persecution and martyrdom are well-known in Christianity. Islam still has not succeeded in globally wiping it out. And even if it had come close to doing so it proves nothing except that Islam is a religion of bullies.

Note: I'm not saying Islam IS a religion of bullies. I'm just saying it would be under those circumstances. This is not intended as a slur against Muslims who embrace peaceful coexistence with people of other faiths.

wait, how is Christianity less of bullying religion, considering the vast numbers of people who were literally forced to convert or die?

Show me evidence from the New Testament gospels that Jesus instructed His followers to force conversions.