Ethics of religious discussions?

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This is not a thread for debating theism v atheism but rather for discussing the ethics of such debates.

It is clear that PPR has a majority of atheist posters (I'm one of them). Theists often complain that PPR is a hostile place for them. My first thought is "If you can't stand the heat keep out of the kitchen". However, maybe there should be a place (even in PPR?) where theists can talk amongst themselves discussing their beliefs without us atheists picking apart their belief systems?

The average theist on WP isn't really interested in the truth or falsity of their beliefs (evolution v creationism for example) but they would rather use their beliefs as a basis for socialising with one another and forming friendships and discussing their interpretation of various religious passages or teachings amongst themselves in a friendly and informal manner and how they affect their daily lives etc.

Do we (atheists) really have the right to pounce on them all the time and point out errors in their logic and lack of knowledge of science etc, knowing this will often hurt their feelings? Many members of WP with religious beliefs avoid the PPR forum because of this. Can there not be room for those with religious beliefs to coexist without us pulling their beliefs apart - no matter how misguided or misinformed we feel them to be? Should facts and truth always trump discussions - even when those discussions are less about rationalism than sharing / bonding / social interaction between the posters?

It seems to me that there are really two type of religious discussions on PPR. Those that are a debate between theism v atheism in which more or less anything goes (provided it is within the rules of the site). And a second type of discussion (which is more or less extinct on PPR) between theists discussing aspects of their beliefs amongst each other in a friendly, mutually supportive way (almost like a church group) without wanting to be pulled apart by the atheist gate crashers.

Despite being atheist I'm also (loosely speaking) a Zen Buddhist, but always feel reticent to speak of that here because of the anticipated atheist backlash dissecting every sentence. Sometimes it would be nice to discuss such things in a friendly and informal way without it being a battleground.

Thoughts?

I think that as long as people can disagree without being mean, and without trying to change someone's mind, that it should be ok. I do understand that someone may want to post a thread about a particular point of doctrine and have it discussed within the paramaters of that belief system, and in that case I would suggest putting something in the OP about it. An example would be a thread about the number of Catholics who believe in transubstantiation, and a question to Catholics about whether or not they believe in it and why. (Many Catholics nowadays do not) In a thread like that, calling for answers from others of the same denomination, I don't see any reason for someone of another denomination or religion, or an athiest pointing out why and how it's not real. I think it's more a matter of staying on the topic of the original post.

I don't mind at all if someone disagrees with me, because I will disagree with many people and state so. However, I don't try to change their mind or argue my point about something as personal and usually as harmless as religion, because most people don't change their religion just because someone on the internet posted something. If they do, then they weren't fully invested in believing in the first place, although a post can cause someone to do some research of their own.

Thats just my opinion though. But if you have a sticky for religious people to discuss things, how would you do it? Would you have one for each religion, or denomination? Because there can be lots of infighting, even among denominations that seem very similar to outsiders. Were you planning a sticky, or maybe a practice of putting something in an OP stating that it's not a "debate the validity of my religion" thread? Just curious as to how this could be done.

If you want a discussion limited to members of your denomination, then it might be better to bring up the discussion in your church.

It is not possible to debate anything under this condition.

When a person starts a thread with a question like 'what is your opinion on the age of the earth?' They are inviting you to influence their opinion.

When a person starts a thread like 'Jesus exists because' They are seeking to influence another's opinion.


Perhaps everybody should be allowed to start threads with the precondition that anyone disagreeing with the OP will be banned.

Now everyone wins and nobody is offended.

That is perhaps the key issue. PPR typically has threads that have a debating nature. The posters are effectively in linguistic combat with each other, each trying to assert that theirs is the most valid opinion or understanding of an issue. Nothing wrong with that, but it does tend to monopolise the nature of discussions regarding religion.

Is it possible to have some threads that are for mutual support, sharing and exploration of ideas that sub-groups of posters have in common rather than the thread being competitive in nature? Little islands of friendly discussion rather than combative debate?

I'm offering no solutions here. Just thinking aloud and wondering what other members think.

it all depends on the type of discussion, granted there are plenty of zealots on here,
but usually if a poster starts a purely teological debate (IE some of the scipture discussions i have seen) i would rather keep out of it, i feel no need to enter a debate where i disagree with the a priori.
that being said when these debates enter the are where they can cause direct harm to the wellbeing of people i will voice my opinion.

The ones that *really* put this place down are the ones who end up getting trounced in arguments where they promote various forms of bigotry or ignorance. They then go and whine in other forums about being persecuted. I don't take it seriously at all or respect that. Personally I wish theists would talk more about religious passages, form friendships or whatnot, but unfortunately when they do come in the PPR they never seem to treat it that way. They act like they are the only ones who get jumped on but that isn't true, anybody who says something controversial is going to get questioned.



Do we have the right? Absolutely. I don't care if someone believes in God, but making claims supporting creationism infringes on science through its very effort of being treated as science. They can't have it both ways; if it should be taught in schools or taken seriously it should not be untouchable. Nothing is untouchable. The theists themselves will criticize politics or etc but when it comes to religious beliefs "Oh step back that's personal". "I think gays are immoral" "Really? That's ignorant and bigoted" "No! You're persecuting my beliefs! WAHH" Give me a break, that is just intellectual cowardice. They try and include everything under the religious umbrella to make it untouchable without appearing insensitive, I have no respect for that kind of manipulative behavior

I have seen threads where theists discuss things in the manner you say with little or no interruption... rarely though. Theists don't tend to come to PPR to have those kinds of discussions. They equate questioning assertions about reality that are... questionable... with persecution of beliefs. I should also mention that many of them think us atheists are immoral, hate all religious people and will take any opportunity to insult or denigrate us on a personal level. The lack of theists in this section probably has more to do with that then with actual arguing. Especially the snide attitude many get when they claim they'll have the last laugh when we burn in hell after death.

What you are grappling with here on PPR Tallyman is a mild form of 'Persecution Spectrum Disorder'

At the low functioning end of the spectrum you have entire nations rioting and murdering because a man drew a cartoon of another man who has been dead for over a thousand years.

+1

There is already the Haven for people who are seeking mutual support.

The whiny religious people don't actually start threads in there asking for support because they don't actually want any support they want the freedom to proselytize without those pesky atheists mocking their fantastical fairy stories.

This.


And for what it's worth, there is a Theist Sanctuary thread in another forum (members only I think).

That thread inspired this one actually

Many atheists on this forum have a very bigot view of theists. They think that theists are all homophobic,conservative christians.
That is not true.
Remember my thread called "The Trouble with Millitant Athiests". I was insulted a number of times but somehow that was okay because I am not an athiest. If a theist would offend an atheist then the thread would be locked. It's quite hypocritical.

The atheists complain about bigot christians and then judge entire groups of people. They even give agnostics and deists a hard time.
But it's all okay in the PPR froum. Hurt the theists but you will be banned if you offend an athiest.
Lets murder all emotions with our logic! we are angry at the God that we don't believe so let's take it out on the theists.
Hatred,apathy and anger will not help anything!

I have said many times that I disagree with organized religion but still get insulted.
The debates in this forum are illogically apathetic.

There are two main types of annoying atheists.

One type says that religion is a big cause of harm in the world, that religious people are stupid, etc. I don't think that this sort of atheist is really contributing much to the discussion, and I think that they should maybe tone it down.

The other type says that religious people are incorrect. They say that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, and Mohammed didn't ride on a winged horse, and Moses didn't part the Red Sea. This type of atheist is essential to the conversation. Without this guy, how will you ever face the strongest arguments against your position? Without facing the strongest arguments against your position, how do you know that your beliefs are correct?

Religious disputes and debates change very few viewpoints.

A waste of breath, paper and ink, and bandwidth.

ruveyn

I don't think support is really the issue. What's missing is any respectful debate on religious issues or rational non-debate discussion of religions.

For example, I wouldn't mind hearing the logic behind some Catholics believing in transubstantiation, even though I think it's a silly idea and I'm not a Catholic. With the atmosphere of PPR being what it is now, that will simply never happen here.


This is the issue. If you had any point to make, you made sure people would miss it by dipping it in insults and sprinkling it with condescension.

I like hearing about what other people think, including when it's the exact opposite of what I think, but not when it's slathered in angry sauce.


I really like this approach.


No, the people who really dislike this place are people with thinner skins than you. There are plenty of people who looked at this subforum, decided it wasn't for them, and left without posting anything, much less 'getting trounced'.

I don't think this place needs to become exceptionally friendly toward thin-skinned people, but a bit more politeness and respect towards those who disagree would certainly not hurt.


If someone tells me that they think I'm wrong and why they think that, I'll listen. I may not be persuaded, but I like hearing the other side, even if I still think they're wrong.