Have Miracles Ever Happened?

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I was going to post this in the "Ethics of Religious Discussion" thread, but then I realised that it really fits better as the first post of a new thread.

It is possible to disagree with someone without assuming bad faith. There are a lot of atheists here who seem to have prejudged their religious opponents, and they are preventing a real conversation about what is true and what is not.

Here's the thing that we all have to agree on before we can have a discussion: it's not what you believe that is important, it's why you believe it. Even if a community is made up of perfectly rational Bayesian updaters, it is still possible for members of the community to disagree, because they will have started with different priors and they have had different life experiences.

I'll start: I don't think that any miracle has ever happened. I think that the universe has simply always been governed by systematic laws (which we don't fully understand yet).

If you think that a miracle has happened (e.g. a resurrection), please give us your best reasons for thinking so.

If you don't think that a miracle has ever happened, please don't post here. You are not needed.

If we're speaking strictly of a miracle in the sense that "god" has intervened in the natural order of things... no.

When it comes to things that are highly improbable happening, yes. These are what I would personally classify as a miracle.

(I'll post in whatever thread I choose BTW)

Things that are highly improbable are not miracles. In fact, it would be highly improbable for things that are highly improbable to never happen.



I didn't mean to be rude with my request, but I just don't want the believers to be scared off by bullies.

Assuming that miracle means "a supernatural or paranormal event that defies the laws of nature", my answer is no. I admit that I can't know that for sure, but in the light of the complete lack of evidence for supernatural or paranormal events, we have to assume that such events don't happen and never did happen.

1) It all boils down to how the specific person feels about the events. Everything is subjective, and 'miracle' is not universally defined. It means many things to many people.

2) You can't make a controversial thread in PPR and not expect some sort of bullying.

That would lead to a rather one-sided "debate".

The first and most important thing is to define what a miracle is. Some people would declare the birth of a child is a miracle, in which case miracles are so commonplace that they aren't worthy of discussion. So events of beauty and/or nobility (and children) aside, we have two fairly common definitions:

(1) Highly unlikely occurrences that suggest the work of a higher power.
(2) Impossible occurrences that can ONLY be the work of a higher power.

The problem with (1) is that such "miracles" cannot be proven. In many cases they can simply be coincidences, and not even very unlikely ones. We are very bad with our instinctive sense of probability. One may feel that the grandmother who wins the lottery just when she needs a hip operation has been blessed by a miracle, but the odds are far less astronomical when you consider that there are thousands of grannies out there doing the same thing, not to mention all the other deserving people. You can't throw a dart into a warehouse filled with dartboards and declare the one you hit was the intended target.

There's also the question of whether a miracle is always a good thing. The religiously inclined may argue that they are, but then they fall into a trap of confirmation bias. Since we can't identify the miracles from the coincidences, they can simply categorise "good" things as miracles and "bad" ones as not. There's no way to prove this is correct, but there's no way to prove it wrong either.

As a definition, (1) is pretty useless. Unless God/VIshnu/Allah/Jehovah/FSM can verify they were responsible, of course.

Option (2) is logically contradictory. If something is impossible, it cannot happen. If it happens, it is possible. Miracles of this type are thus either fictitious or entirely possible, given the right circumstances, in which case we're looking at highly improbable. We're back to (1) again.

A better question might be to ask if any particular miracles have happened. I have doubts about all the classic ones.

I just think there's no reason to think that a miracle has happened. There is no empirical evidence that such thing has happened. Sure, we won't know for sure if it did happen. But without a good reason to believe in them, it would be the same as believing that pink unicorns exist but are just very good at hiding.

Sorry, I probably didn't explain myself very well. In retrospect, this was a very naive idea for a thread.

I think that the position that "no miracles have ever happened" is the default position. In other words, I think that you need evidence in order to believe that a miracle has happened, and I think you don't need any evidence in order to believe that no miracle has ever happened.

For example, I don't believe that anyone has ever been supernaturally raised from the dead. I don't think that I need any evidence for this, it is simply the default position. So it is pointless for a whole bunch of us to line up and say that we don't think that miracles have happened. I want to hear from people who think that miracles have happened, and I want to hear why they think so.

I should also specify what I mean by a miracle: a miracle is not something which is unlikely, or wonderful, a miracle is something which is impossible without supernatural intervention. Examples include: divine resurrections, virgin births, books being dictated from God, angels appearing on Earth, etc.

Major Premise: Absence of evidence is sufficient cause to effect reasonable doubt.
Minor Premise: There is no valid empirical evidence to support the occurrence of miracles.
Conclusion: It is reasonable to doubt the occurrence of miracles.

I doubt that any "supernatural or paranormal event that defies the laws of nature" has ever occurred, and this is reasonable.

Show me a miracle, and I will believe.

It depends on the definition of miracle, really.

It is highly unlikely, for example, that someone with advanced lung cancer will make a full recovery without extensive medial treatment. It is however technically possible, and if it happened one could call it a miracle. That sort of miracle (a highly improbable event) could well happen, and I can believe that such things do occasionally happen.

A god-saved-me miracle, however... not so much.

A miracle AFAIK is god personally intervening in some situation

With the definition, not that I know of.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cubs+win+world+series

Now THAT would be a miracle.

First of all, what's a miracle?

What about the Big Bang's very beginning? What makes it not "supernatural"?

What makes you think it would be supernatural?

What makes you know what I think if I haven't said what I thought yet?