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So is Marriage Obsolete ?

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PM
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16 Mar 2012, 4:18 pm

The leading cause of divorce is marriage.

While marriage existed before the three Abrahamic religions (IIRC), it most likely started as an institution of ancient religions. By that rationale, Monogamy is more than likely simple religious dogma.


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Bataar
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16 Mar 2012, 4:37 pm

The decline of marrige is definitely having a huge negative impact on society in nearly every aspect. Increased poverty, increased crime, more burden on the state/tax payers, etc.



ValentineWiggin
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16 Mar 2012, 4:46 pm

PM wrote:
The leading cause of divorce is marriage.

While marriage existed before the three Abrahamic religions (IIRC), it most likely started as an institution of ancient religions. By that rationale, Monogamy is more than likely simple religious dogma.


Or a reproductive strategy employed in a variety of mating environments over the course of human evolutionary history. Close enough.


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16 Mar 2012, 4:59 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
PM wrote:
The leading cause of divorce is marriage.

While marriage existed before the three Abrahamic religions (IIRC), it most likely started as an institution of ancient religions. By that rationale, Monogamy is more than likely simple religious dogma.


Or a reproductive strategy employed in a variety of mating environments over the course of human evolutionary history. Close enough.


Pretty much. Human youngsters take an obscenely long time to grow, they need all the parental investment they can get!


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16 Mar 2012, 5:06 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
it's in that book, Sex at Dawn. the authors seek to prove we are not naturally monogamous.


Sperm Wars by Robin Baker 1996 proves the same thing. It also has profound implications for those who embrace the creation myths. Paradigm shifting and well written.



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16 Mar 2012, 5:56 pm

Aspie_Chav wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
By the way, socialist states such as New Zealand and the countries of northern Europe hardly produces masses of such men.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Probably because there is less biological diversity in these countries. thus slower to change, but change does happen. In a more diverse country, I am sure some young Nigerians would find interesting ways release some of that large pot of public money and Roma gypsies would capitalise on on the generous wealth fair. The only way to protect against this is to implement anti diversity policies( racist policies) or other Big-Brother policies.

The alternative is to be a country where you keep more of what you earn, and hard work is reworded.


I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that socialism leads to bad behavior. The Old West chapter of American history was full of bad men - and women - who were more more than happy to steal from those Americans on the frontier who worked hard for what they had. And on the Western frontier, there certainly was no socialism.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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16 Mar 2012, 6:07 pm

PM wrote:
The leading cause of divorce is marriage.

While marriage existed before the three Abrahamic religions (IIRC), it most likely started as an institution of ancient religions. By that rationale, Monogamy is more than likely simple religious dogma.

You recall correctly about the timeline, but the rest, less so.

Actually, before the 12th century, marriage was not even a religious ceremony in Europe. It was appropriated by the Church during the gregorian reforms as part of the increased social controls of Christians. In the Ancient era, monogamy existed in one way or another at least in China, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome and Gaul, and almost certainly elsewhere. Of course, there were exceptions and variations, especially amongst nobles and royalty, but still. Now, in that, I count three different language families and five different sets of religious beliefs.

Saying it comes from religion is a gratuitous affirmation. I don't see how you can support it. It would be like saying marriage derives from agriculture.

Bataar wrote:
The decline of marrige is definitely having a huge negative impact on society in nearly every aspect. Increased poverty, increased crime, more burden on the state/tax payers, etc.

Why?

Marriage is just a contract. You can live with someone else and have children without a piece of paper.



Last edited by enrico_dandolo on 16 Mar 2012, 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TeaEarlGreyHot
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16 Mar 2012, 6:10 pm

Quote:
So is Marriage Obsolete ?


No.


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16 Mar 2012, 7:05 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
PM wrote:
The leading cause of divorce is marriage.

While marriage existed before the three Abrahamic religions (IIRC), it most likely started as an institution of ancient religions. By that rationale, Monogamy is more than likely simple religious dogma.

You recall correctly about the timeline, but the rest, less so.

Actually, before the 12th century, marriage was not even a religious ceremony in Europe. It was appropriated by the Church during the gregorian reforms as part of the increased social controls of Christians. In the Ancient era, monogamy existed in one way or another at least in China, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome and Gaul, and almost certainly elsewhere. Of course, there were exceptions and variations, especially amongst nobles and royalty, but still. Now, in that, I count three different language families and five different sets of religious beliefs.

Saying it comes from religion is a gratuitous affirmation. I don't see how you can support it. It would be like saying marriage derives from agriculture.

Bataar wrote:
The decline of marrige is definitely having a huge negative impact on society in nearly every aspect. Increased poverty, increased crime, more burden on the state/tax payers, etc.

Why?

Marriage is just a contract. You can live with someone else and have children without a piece of paper.


Tacitus in his late first century book, The Germania, maintained that while some wealthy and powerful Germanic lords might have more than one wife, as a means of making political alliances, the average tribesman practiced monogamy, which he claimed was their strongest institution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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16 Mar 2012, 7:08 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
PM wrote:
The leading cause of divorce is marriage.

While marriage existed before the three Abrahamic religions (IIRC), it most likely started as an institution of ancient religions. By that rationale, Monogamy is more than likely simple religious dogma.


Or a reproductive strategy employed in a variety of mating environments over the course of human evolutionary history. Close enough.


Yeah thats pretty much close enough



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16 Mar 2012, 7:29 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
PM wrote:
The leading cause of divorce is marriage.

While marriage existed before the three Abrahamic religions (IIRC), it most likely started as an institution of ancient religions. By that rationale, Monogamy is more than likely simple religious dogma.

You recall correctly about the timeline, but the rest, less so.

Actually, before the 12th century, marriage was not even a religious ceremony in Europe. It was appropriated by the Church during the gregorian reforms as part of the increased social controls of Christians. In the Ancient era, monogamy existed in one way or another at least in China, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome and Gaul, and almost certainly elsewhere. Of course, there were exceptions and variations, especially amongst nobles and royalty, but still. Now, in that, I count three different language families and five different sets of religious beliefs.

Saying it comes from religion is a gratuitous affirmation. I don't see how you can support it. It would be like saying marriage derives from agriculture.


I was simply stating a theory. It just seems that the origin of marriage lies in one or more religions.


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16 Mar 2012, 7:35 pm

Bataar wrote:
The decline of marrige is definitely having a huge negative impact on society in nearly every aspect. Increased poverty, increased crime, more burden on the state/tax payers, etc.

I don't think the decline of marriage is the reason for that. I believe we live in a society that is eating its own tail. More and more people are unhappy. People commit suicide because they cannot fit into what is defined as "normal". Society, so to speak, has a negative impact on itself, ironically. It is the cause for its own destruction.

enrico_dandolo wrote:
Bataar wrote:
The decline of marrige is definitely having a huge negative impact on society in nearly every aspect. Increased poverty, increased crime, more burden on the state/tax payers, etc.

Why?

Marriage is just a contract. You can live with someone else and have children without a piece of paper.

That's the thing. We are not talking about what marriage actually is, but what we fit into that concept of "marriage". We do not seem to be aware (anymore?) that it is nothing more than a contract. But it has become this big cultural thing. Or it always has been.


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16 Mar 2012, 7:51 pm

PM wrote:

I was simply stating a theory. It just seems that the origin of marriage lies in one or more religions.


You misuse the word "theory"- hint: it doesn't mean argument from ignorance.

We're no more "naturally" polygamous than "naturally" monogamous-
both men and women in groups and individuals have practiced both at different times for different reasons,
and continue to do so.


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16 Mar 2012, 7:55 pm

Msrriage has been around longer then most of the world religions marriage didnt get its roots from a religious belief or practice.



ValentineWiggin
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16 Mar 2012, 7:59 pm

Joker wrote:
Msrriage has been around longer then most of the world religions marriage didnt get its roots from a religious belief or practice.


I think, too, we're falsely equivocating the word "marriage" with monogamy- monogamy existed long before marriage,
and even in modern times marriage hasn't necessarily meant monogamy except in rare instances.


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16 Mar 2012, 8:03 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Joker wrote:
Msrriage has been around longer then most of the world religions marriage didnt get its roots from a religious belief or practice.


I think, too, we're falsely equivocating the word "marriage" with monogamy- monogamy existed long before marriage,
and even in modern times marriage hasn't necessarily meant monogamy except in rare instances.


This is true marriage is a old practice that had nothing to do with religion I do not understand how people think marrige has ties to any religion that is a fallacy.