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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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05 Dec 2013, 2:13 am

if it read Jesus was the first born of a 19 year old woman instead of all this talk of Virgins giving birth? I remember sitting in church just thinking all this talk about Virgin births is just plain strange. I always felt kinda crept out about it but I kept it to myself, of course. Where I live, you could never discuss such thoughts without getting pounced on, practically.

I assume Jesus's mom was maybe a teenager.

Thoughts?



TallyMan
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05 Dec 2013, 4:20 am

Assuming Jesus existed and looked racially similar to his countrymen, then his DNA would have contained approximately 2% Neanderthal DNA, like the rest of us who emerged out of Africa. I find it somewhat amusing that Jesus... just like everyone else on the planet was a product of evolution.

Of course some could argue that Jesus didn't have any Neanderthal DNA, but in that case he would have looked more like a pure dark skinned African... and that would certainly have raised questions about his parentage. "I'm a virgin... honest... the lord came to me..."


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naturalplastic
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05 Dec 2013, 5:03 am

In Hinduism the God Vishnu knocked up the mortal princess Devaki, and she gave birth to the God Krishna. Krishna being an avatar- or earthy manifestation of Vishnu. But the princess Devaki was already married to the prince Vasudevu of the realm, and she had already given birth to seven children at the time. So she was hardly a 'virgin'. So like Christ (even their names are similiar)Krishna was the product of devine artificial insemination of sorts by a diety-and only had one mortal biological parent. But unlike Christ his mom was never described as a 'virgin'. And his birth is never described as a 'virgin birth'.

So why didnt they write the story so that Mary and Joseph were like Devaki, and Vasudeu,- husband and wife, and even had children already (Jesus had a siblings latter in the NT)?


The trouble is that the story has her cast as "a maiden" or "unmarried woman"- and probably a teenager. So she kinda has to be a virgin to be respectable as a character



Last edited by naturalplastic on 05 Dec 2013, 7:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

MCalavera
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05 Dec 2013, 5:47 am

According to Luke, the conception was what's miraculous. It occurred in a spontaneous manner, so to speak. No sexual activity involved.



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05 Dec 2013, 9:59 am

The Greeks also had some stories about men whose fathers were gods. For example, Hercules, who was the son of the god Zeus and the mortal Alcmene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitryon_(play)

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Amphitryon begins with a prologue given by the god Mercury, in which he gives some background information to the audience. Amphitryon and his slave Sosia have been away at war and are returning to Thebes. Meanwhile, the god Jupiter is sleeping with Amphitryon’s wife Alcmena. Jupiter is in the guise of Amphitryon so that Alcmena is unaware that he is not her husband.

Mercury's job is to buy his father Jupiter some time by deceiving those who would interfere. He changes his appearance to look like the slave Sosia, and when the real Sosia arrives, he beats him up and sends him away from the house. Thoroughly confused by having been beat up by himself, Sosia returns to the ship to relay what happened to his master Amphitryon.

The following morning, Amphitryon sets off for the house, annoyed by his slave's foolish sounding story. Jupiter leaves only moments before Amphitryon arrives, and when Alcmena sees her real husband, she is confused as to why he has returned. Amphitryon doesn't appreciate this strange welcome after being gone for so many months, and confusion turns to anger and jealousy after learning that she has slept with a man who is not himself.

After a long argument, Alcmena is ready to leave her untrusting husband but is stopped by Jupiter. He soon begins to set things right, and in a miraculous event, Alcmena gives birth to twin boys. One is the son of Amphitryon, the other is Hercules, the son of Jupiter. To quell Amphitryon’s anger, he explains to him what he did, and Amphyitryon is then honored to have shared his wife with a god.


Of course it all seems quite silly to any rational person today. But, back in the day, a man whose father was a god was apparently a familiar religious motif, and may have been an important selling point in spreading Christianity among the goyim.



naturalplastic
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05 Dec 2013, 11:19 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
The Greeks also had some stories about men whose fathers were gods. For example, Hercules, who was the son of the god Zeus and the mortal Alcmene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitryon_(play)

Quote:
Amphitryon begins with a prologue given by the god Mercury, in which he gives some background information to the audience. Amphitryon and his slave Sosia have been away at war and are returning to Thebes. Meanwhile, the god Jupiter is sleeping with Amphitryon’s wife Alcmena. Jupiter is in the guise of Amphitryon so that Alcmena is unaware that he is not her husband.

Mercury's job is to buy his father Jupiter some time by deceiving those who would interfere. He changes his appearance to look like the slave Sosia, and when the real Sosia arrives, he beats him up and sends him away from the house. Thoroughly confused by having been beat up by himself, Sosia returns to the ship to relay what happened to his master Amphitryon.

The following morning, Amphitryon sets off for the house, annoyed by his slave's foolish sounding story. Jupiter leaves only moments before Amphitryon arrives, and when Alcmena sees her real husband, she is confused as to why he has returned. Amphitryon doesn't appreciate this strange welcome after being gone for so many months, and confusion turns to anger and jealousy after learning that she has slept with a man who is not himself.

After a long argument, Alcmena is ready to leave her untrusting husband but is stopped by Jupiter. He soon begins to set things right, and in a miraculous event, Alcmena gives birth to twin boys. One is the son of Amphitryon, the other is Hercules, the son of Jupiter. To quell Amphitryon’s anger, he explains to him what he did, and Amphyitryon is then honored to have shared his wife with a god.


Of course it all seems quite silly to any rational person today. But, back in the day, a man whose father was a god was apparently a familiar religious motif, and may have been an important selling point in spreading Christianity among the goyim.


All of the above- Hercules, Krishna, and Christ, were all sons of mortal women, and fathers who were gods.

But my favorite is the one that turns these on the head- a girl born of a dad without a mom ( he should have filed a maternity suit!). That being the goddess Athena.

One day her dad, Zeus had a sudden spliting headache, and then BANG! Out popped Athena-right right out of his forehead. And not as an infant, but as a fully grown adult!



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05 Dec 2013, 11:22 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
if it read Jesus was the first born of a 19 year old woman instead of all this talk of Virgins giving birth? I remember sitting in church just thinking all this talk about Virgin births is just plain strange. I always felt kinda crept out about it but I kept it to myself, of course. Where I live, you could never discuss such thoughts without getting pounced on, practically.

I assume Jesus's mom was maybe a teenager.

Thoughts?


From a friend I have heard that the whole virgin thing is based on a mistranslation, and young women is what really is meant with the used term in the orginal language.



pete1061
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05 Dec 2013, 1:10 pm

I don't think anything could improve the readability of the bible. It's one of the most poorly written books I have encountered.
A divisive collection of many authors from an outdated context, re-translated and re-translated so many times it's unreadable.


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MCalavera
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05 Dec 2013, 1:20 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
But my favorite is the one that turns these on the head- a girl born of a dad without a mom ( he should have filed a maternity suit!). That being the goddess Athena.

One day her dad, Zeus had a sudden spliting headache, and then BANG! Out popped Athena-right right out of his forehead. And not as an infant, but as a fully grown adult!


Yeah, it's a curious one. I have never been able to properly visualize how it would have happened exactly.

Same with the physical being of the Hecatoncheires. Is it possible to depict such a monster accurately within our current mediums?



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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05 Dec 2013, 1:29 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Assuming Jesus existed and looked racially similar to his countrymen, then his DNA would have contained approximately 2% Neanderthal DNA, like the rest of us who emerged out of Africa. I find it somewhat amusing that Jesus... just like everyone else on the planet was a product of evolution.

Of course some could argue that Jesus didn't have any Neanderthal DNA, but in that case he would have looked more like a pure dark skinned African... and that would certainly have raised questions about his parentage. "I'm a virgin... honest... the lord came to me..."

He could have been a Greek mix, there's speculation about that, which would have made him kinda biracial looking.



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05 Dec 2013, 1:35 pm

pete1061 wrote:
I don't think anything could improve the readability of the bible. It's one of the most poorly written books I have encountered.
A divisive collection of many authors from an outdated context, re-translated and re-translated so many times it's unreadable.

Oh come on, you can dislike the message but don't pretend it is badly written.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... esiastes+1



MCalavera
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05 Dec 2013, 1:39 pm

It's better than the Qur'an at least. That one was clearly written by someone who was being a big bully.



Nambo
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05 Dec 2013, 4:57 pm

I heard somewhere that Cattle can be made pregnant without actually be mounted by a bull, how crazy is that!, as if a Virgin cow could give birth!

Next thing they will be claiming they can start a life by using a single organisms DNA instead of two!



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05 Dec 2013, 5:47 pm

Sigbold wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
if it read Jesus was the first born of a 19 year old woman instead of all this talk of Virgins giving birth? I remember sitting in church just thinking all this talk about Virgin births is just plain strange. I always felt kinda crept out about it but I kept it to myself, of course. Where I live, you could never discuss such thoughts without getting pounced on, practically.

I assume Jesus's mom was maybe a teenager.

Thoughts?


From a friend I have heard that the whole virgin thing is based on a mistranslation, and young women is what really is meant with the used term in the orginal language.

There are claims that the Old Testament prophecies referring to the Messiah meant young woman rather than virgin. However, I think that is specific to Old Testament prophecies, and that Jesus was actually born of a virgin, according to the NT.



Last edited by UndeadToaster on 05 Dec 2013, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Dec 2013, 5:49 pm

The claims are valid. And only the NT say that Jesus was born of a virgin.



naturalplastic
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05 Dec 2013, 6:16 pm

Nambo wrote:
I heard somewhere that Cattle can be made pregnant without actually be mounted by a bull, how crazy is that!, as if a Virgin cow could give birth!

Next thing they will be claiming they can start a life by using a single organisms DNA instead of two!


Bees do it naturally all of the time.

In most species of bees the beehive has one fertile female (the queen), thousands of nonfertile females (the workers), and a few fertile males (the drones). All the females are (like us) diploid(both sets of chromosomes), and the workers are the product of the queen mating with an outside drone. But the drones are the haploid offspring of eggs laid by the queen without mating.

So...maybe Jesus was the first human drone, and was a viable human haploid (only had one set of chromosomes).