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Did Jesus or His followers start a new religion?

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Ragtime
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09 Apr 2012, 3:15 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.


What would even be the point of my responding to this? We're worlds apart.


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Joker
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09 Apr 2012, 3:17 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.


Yes Jew hatred is apart of the christian faith you can blame the catholics and the prostestants for that. All though I never saw how Zionism could be viewed as racist.



Lord_Gareth
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09 Apr 2012, 3:19 pm

Joker wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.


Yes Jew hatred is apart of the christian faith you can blame the catholics and the prostestants for that. All though I never saw how Zionism could be viewed as racist.


You are aware that Protestant only means 'not Catholic', right? So you just blamed the entirety of Christianity. Y'know, like Vigilans just did (with great accuracy).


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Joker
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09 Apr 2012, 3:25 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.


Yes Jew hatred is apart of the christian faith you can blame the catholics and the prostestants for that. All though I never saw how Zionism could be viewed as racist.


You are aware that Protestant only means 'not Catholic', right? So you just blamed the entirety of Christianity. Y'know, like Vigilans just did (with great accuracy).


Yes I knew that and because their are several diffrent branches of the Christian faith the Goths never hated the Jews take a look at Gothic Christiantitys history and see for yourself.



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09 Apr 2012, 3:32 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.


What would even be the point of my responding to this? We're worlds apart.


There is only one historical timeline. "Worlds apart" does not cut it. You are simply in denial of the weight of history


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You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


Joker
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09 Apr 2012, 3:37 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.


What would even be the point of my responding to this? We're worlds apart.


There is only one historical timeline. "Worlds apart" does not cut it. You are simply in denial of the weight of history


At least I am not.



ruveyn
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09 Apr 2012, 3:53 pm

Grebels wrote:
Hi Ragtime, Corinthians certainly, but also Paul speaking at Mars Hill. I don't think he was just buttering them up by agreeing up to a certain point. Now here's a fact half of Romans 6 is it, is almost identical to some writing of the Stoic Senneca. I also think some of Paul's writing is Stoic in tone. How is it that John refers to Jesus as the Logos? Was that influence from Philo? At least we know that part of Israel ay the time was Hellenistic.


Paul was a great imitator. He was also a con man who swindled the first followers of Jesus. He invented a new religion that should be called Paulianity.

ruveyn



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09 Apr 2012, 3:56 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Grebels wrote:
Hi Ragtime, Corinthians certainly, but also Paul speaking at Mars Hill. I don't think he was just buttering them up by agreeing up to a certain point. Now here's a fact half of Romans 6 is it, is almost identical to some writing of the Stoic Senneca. I also think some of Paul's writing is Stoic in tone. How is it that John refers to Jesus as the Logos? Was that influence from Philo? At least we know that part of Israel ay the time was Hellenistic.


Paul was a great imitator. He was also a con man who swindled the first followers of Jesus. He invented a new religion that should be called Paulianity.

ruveyn


Paul is my least favorite I prefer Bartholomew the Apostle.



Ragtime
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09 Apr 2012, 3:58 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.


What would even be the point of my responding to this? We're worlds apart.


There is only one historical timeline. "Worlds apart" does not cut it. You are simply in denial of the weight of history


What I deny is the desire to discuss it with you when you're this heated. I see zero chance we'll ever see eye to eye, so what's the point? I know Islam, I know Judaica, I know Christianity, and I keep up with world events. You really don't want to know what I think of your stated position.


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09 Apr 2012, 4:12 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.


What would even be the point of my responding to this? We're worlds apart.


There is only one historical timeline. "Worlds apart" does not cut it. You are simply in denial of the weight of history


What I deny is the desire to discuss it with you when you're this heated. I see zero chance we'll ever see eye to eye, so what's the point? I know Islam, I know Judaica, I know Christianity, and I keep up with world events. You really don't want to know what I think of your stated position.


Heated? More "disagreement = disrespect"?

I don't care what you think of my "position" since my position is that of historical fact and not "Ragtime's imagination"


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09 Apr 2012, 4:16 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.

Quote:
Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.

Quote:
There is only one historical timeline. "Worlds apart" does not cut it. You are simply in denial of the weight of history


Wow, Vigilans is ultra heated mad today.


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09 Apr 2012, 4:19 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.

Quote:
Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.

Quote:
There is only one historical timeline. "Worlds apart" does not cut it. You are simply in denial of the weight of history


Wow, Vigilans is ultra heated mad today.


Sorry, its my Manstrual period. I'm out of control!!


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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


Joker
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09 Apr 2012, 4:21 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.

Quote:
Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.

Quote:
There is only one historical timeline. "Worlds apart" does not cut it. You are simply in denial of the weight of history


Wow, Vigilans is ultra heated mad today.


Sorry, its my Manstrual period. I'm out of control!!


:lol:



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09 Apr 2012, 4:33 pm

Ragtime wrote:
mushroo wrote:

I'm off to celebrate Good Friday; God bless!


Ooooo, you are so... so... weird.


I should have said "observe" and not "celebrate." :)



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09 Apr 2012, 5:05 pm

Any teaching outside of the Bible cannot accurately be categorized as 'Christian' if that teaching contradicts Jesus' words. Anti-semitism taught/encouraged by any church or any spokesperson contradicts Jesus' love for His people. He came TO the Jews, He loved the Jews, He died FOR the Jews, and He loved them and all of us.
Though Jews, Muslims, and Christians are known as 'People Of The Book', the Book in question is the Old Testament.
The New Testament clearly and in unusual detail describes Jesus' suffering and martyrdom...clearly states that He died on a cross and His dead body was placed in a tomb.
The Q'uran teaches that He was not crucified, that another man died in His place.
Therefore, Muslims believe that He did NOT die for our sins, and could not possibly have risen from a tomb which they are taught that He was never in.
THAT is the major difference in Christian/Muslim belief.
Many Jews believe that Jesus was a prophet; Muslims are taught that Jesus was a prophet, only Christians believe that He was God's son.
And we all, Christian, Jew, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, pagan, Buddhist, Hindu, Bahai, have the right to believe as we choose.
I believe that a good part of our problems is what we THINK that each other believes!

Sylkat :roll:



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09 Apr 2012, 5:08 pm

Sylkat wrote:
Any teaching outside of the Bible cannot accurately be categorized as 'Christian' if that teaching contradicts Jesus' words. Anti-semitism taught/encouraged by any church or any spokesperson contradicts Jesus' love for His people. He came TO the Jews, He loved the Jews, He died FOR the Jews, and He loved them and all of us.
Though Jews, Muslims, and Christians are known as 'People Of The Book', the Book in question is the Old Testament.
The New Testament clearly and in unusual detail describes Jesus' suffering and martyrdom...clearly states that He died on a cross and His dead body was placed in a tomb.
The Q'uran teaches that He was not crucified, that another man died in His place.
Therefore, Muslims believe that He did NOT die for our sins, and could not possibly have risen from a tomb which they are taught that He was never in.
THAT is the major difference in Christian/Muslim belief.
Many Jews believe that Jesus was a prophet; Muslims are taught that Jesus was a prophet, only Christians believe that He was God's son.
And we all, Christian, Jew, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, pagan, Buddhist, Hindu, Bahai, have the right to believe as we choose.
I believe that a good part of our problems is what we THINK that each other believes!

Sylkat :roll:


Pretty much what Sylkat said.