Israel and its abuse of the anti semitism card

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I'm not usually a fan of David Icke but he makes some valid points here.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuQ7Zp3dfC8[/youtube]

The problem that a lot of Israelis and Zionists have with critics of Israel is that quite a lot of its Arab/Islamist 'critics' conflate Israel and Jews. Hatred of Jews and Judaism (not just Israel) is endemic in the Middle East in Islamic countries.

I'm not saying that legitimate criticism of Israel's actions should be dismissed as "anti-Semitism". More than a fair share of nasty stuff has been done in Israel's name and its policies should be criticised. That's not what I'm saying. What you have to be careful of is what's being said, how unbalanced and vitriolic it comes across as, who is saying it, and the kind of tone it's being delivered in.

It's like anything else: criticism (even powerful and well-deserved criticism) of Israel's actions taking into account its precarious position in the Middle East and its democracy - fine. A lot of people disagree with what Israel does, and that's fair enough. I don't see a problem with that, if it's true and backed up by facts.

Being as the Guardian is and giving a platform to racist terrorists of Hamas, openly being anti-Semitic and basically ignoring how Israel (and Jews) are reported in much of Arab media - not fine.

It's all about the message that people are getting from what you're trying to say.

But..... free speech!

They have all the right to single out and criticise and attack Israel all they like in as vitriolic terms as they like. Don't expect other people to think about what you're saying and respond in kind.

If you want to make Israel out as something fundamentally flawed and unique in its evil, fair enough. I don't agree with you, but it's free speech. Personally, I think much of the rest of the Arab world is far more brutal than Israel will ever be. Look at the bloodbath in Syria.

Like at the anti-Israel demonstrations in Britain, where terrorist supporters bring their flags and demonstrate their support for terrorist organisations. That's free speech as well, as distasteful as it is. Israelis and Jews look at this with horror, but get on with their lives.

If anything i'd say its the reverse. President Amoudinejad for example has before spoken openly and proudly of the Jewish community of some 250 000 that live freely and happily in Iran. He could also be clearly seen shaking hands with orthodox rabbis in the video above. Heck, many Orthodox Jews do not want to be associated with Zionism as the above video also clearly shows.

Pro Zionists, not just the jewish ones are trying to conflate Judaism with Zionism for their own political expediency.


Right, have you seen or heard of the way Israel treats Palestinian prisoners (or for that matter the way it uses military ordinance with minimal regard for civillian casualties)? Sleep deprivation, sustained custody without trial, and arbitrary beatings. Thats just what we know about since the Israeli custody system is highly secretive.

It would make Abhu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay look like a day camp. Of course you'd probably say they get it easy there anyway.

Yes, the president of Iran may speak openly about the Iranian Jewish community to keep up the illusion that he is not anti-semitic. However, he is also a holocaust denier.

I think you have to keep in mind cultural relativism. National Socialism and the crimes associated around it arent widely studied outside the west for the same reason the rape of Nanking or the British mandate of Palestine isn't taught as elementary history in western schools.

To many people outside Europe and North America, the holocaust wasn't part of their history so it didn't affect them. What does affect them however is the repercussions of the event when said group resettles the homeland of their fellow theological believers in an act of attempted genocide.

Moreover, and in spite of google searching to find a specific example of alledged holocaust denial, from what i understand Ahmoudinejhad was actually misquoted. I don't agree with his views but what he actually said was that the holocaust should be "studied" and not used as an excuse for the treatment of the Palestinians.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY[/youtube]

Last edited by thomas81 on 27 Sep 2012, 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jewish Zionists are playing the race card as they always have. I for one don't recognize it. Lemme get this straight with you, Tequila: I refuse to take sides in the Arab-Israeli conflict and quite frankly I'm sick to death of hearing about it constantly in the western media.

Right wing Christian and Agnostic Zionists play the race card on their behalf. The hypocrisy, inconsistency and spinelessness sickens me. On one hand they accuse the left of 'sticking up' for Islamism but on the other they are tripping over themselves to back up Israel in spite of their violence and contempt for dispossessed people.

The anti-semitic pro-zionists are a fascinating and frightening bunch. There's a peculiar relationship. Particularly with those Christians who want the Jews in their homeland so armageddon can occur - wiping out Jews - and the Israeli Jews quite happy to have them as a political force in the US.



As ver kidz would have it - srsly? After your invective against Muslims, and so approvingly posting stuff from Pat Condell, and calling me all sorts of nasties for basically saying what you have here, all of a sudden tone is important?

What's more, nice distinction - bad things 'done in Israel's name', rather than bad things Israel has done. Do you offer the same distinction to crimes and outrages committed by Islamists?

There are 250,000 Jewish people in Iran are there? Wrong. Wikipedia quotes under 9,000 Jews still remaining there - they do have one Jewish MP, but he has to walk a constant tightrope between protecting his community and not having a pop at the government. The 250,000 Iranian Jews you speak of actually live in Israel. There is a steady exodus from Iran, probably inspired by the anti-Semitic rhetoric of Ahmedinajad and the Iranian theocratic government, plus worries over their persecution if anything happens between Israel and Iran. Intolerance towards Jews in Arab societies generally is massive and well-documented. Most of the Jews in Muslim Arab countries were forced out long ago.

The Iranians in seem like a friendly, creative, wise and grounded people. It's just a shame that they aren't allowed to follow their secular, liberal dreams rather than being run by a gang of Islamic religious fascists. Iranians aren't even Arabs, yet their government is focusing on a completely alien conflict. Bit like George Galloway and Bradford.



This is the group of Neturei Karta, a tiny, tiny Orthodox Jewish group on the ultra-fringes of Judaism who are dedicated to the disbandment of Israel because Neturei Karta believes that the exile of the Jews can only end with the arrival of the Messiah. They hate the idea of Israel so much that they line up in support of Palestinain terrorists, Islamic fundamentalists and Iran's president. These people are generally reviled in Israeli popular society and are blinded by their anti-Zionist fanaticism to see just how bad the sorts of people are that they support. Even amongst Haredi Jews, these people are despised.



"Many"? Or just the delusional fruitcakes of NK and the like?

In fact, NK members have even been beaten up by Muslim Arabs in Jordan on pro-Palestinian marches. They don't just hate "Zionists" these people, they hate Jews.



Not necessarily, but often the hatred of Jews is closely related with Israel (but not always - at least the neo-Nazi anti-Semites are more honest). Israel should be criticised for the bad things it does, but they should be placed in context. The Guardian and the like seem to go on about all the bad things that happen in Israel but rarely seem to mention the good.



Have you seen how the general populations of people all across the Arab world are treated? Where all of their people are denied freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of (and from) religion, where gender apartheid and sexual repression and forcing women to dress up like a black post box are seen simply as a part of life, where people are murdered for witchcraft, where gays and adulterers (and rape victims accused of "adultery") are hanged, where treating half the population as property is considered completely acceptable and is in accordance with Islamic religious law?

My point is that most of the countries that criticise Israel for "human rights" violations really have absolutely no legs to stand on, given that Arabs in Israel have better rights than Arabs in many Islamic countries.

Pull the other one with your "concern" for Palestinian detainees. It is true that some of these people are probably innocent, many are terrorists.

I have some sympathy with the ordinary (non-terrorist) people of Palestine. They live in miserable, awful conditions primarily because of their appalling leadership. If the Palestinians would stop murdering people, they'd probably have had a Palestinian state by now. It's their extreme fanaticism, deathly, suicidal indoctrinated hatred of Israel that's preventing all of that from taking place.



And why do you think the Israelis might be like that? Where these abuses happen, the people should be condemned and brought to book. To be honest, though, I can't shed too many tears for jihadists.

Oh, I forgot to mention some of Dinnerjacket's gems:

"If everyone in this field of activity [journalism] can guard their freedoms in the face of the Zionist network that has a monopoly over all international media outlets, they can defeat it…Journalism was made to report the truth, but the Zionists, just like how they have misled and deviated all facets of humanity and cause their decline, have also caused the decline of journalism."

"The Quds Day is not merely a strategic solution for the Palestinian problem, as it is to be viewed as a key for solving the world problems; any freedom lover and justice seeker in the world must do its best for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the path for the establishment of justice and freedom in the world…the presidential election hopefuls must go kiss the feet of the Zionists to ensure their victory in the election….If the people's votes really counts in those countries, why then a candidate must go to kiss the feet of a clandestine Zionist minority, sacrificing the entire prestige, chanted mottoes, and values of their system before the Zionists, and justifying the entire criminal acts of that regime?"

"It has now been some 400 years that a horrendous Zionist clan has been ruling the major world affairs, and behind the scenes of the major power circles, in political, media, monetary, and banking organizations in the world, they have been the decision makers, to an extent that a big power with a huge economy and over 300 million population, the presidential election hopefuls must go kiss the feet of the Zionists to ensure their victory in the elections."

"The Zionist regime is both the symbol of the hegemony of the Zionism over the world and the means in the hand of the oppressor powers for expansion of their hegemony in the region and in the world….The Zionist that has resorting to lies and phony promises attracted a group into their lands from around the world in order to expand their hegemony over the regional nations taking advantage of their presence are now mistreating them…Zionism is the modern times plight of the human society and when we meet the European politicians they say speak transparently about everything, but they refrain from talking about the Zionist regime, which proves that Israel is the axis of unity of the world hegemonic powers."

"Zionists, who have no faith in religion or even God, now claim piety and intend to take away the Islamic identity of the Holy Quds. This ridiculous move is in fact the continuation of the colonialist polices of oppressors, which will not save the Zionist regime, but also take the regime closer to the endpoint of its existence."

"...f some European countries still use the Holocaust, after six decades, as the excuse to pay fine or ransom to the Zionists, should it not be an obligation upon the slave masters or colonial powers to pay reparations to the affected nations? ... By using their imperialistic media network which is under the influence of colonialism they threaten anyone who questions the Holocaust and the September 11 event with sanctions and military action "

""We should revive our traditional medicine which is in harmony with our culture and is naturally cheaper and more useful …The Zionist and western capital holders have changed all human and cultural concepts in the world so widely that treatment is completely considered as a business in the world today."

"The Zionist regime's establishment was based on numerous deceptions and lies and one of the biggest lies was the Holocaust."

"The question is, why don't we allow this subject (the Holocaust) to be examined further... It is incorrect to force only one view on the rest of the world.

"How come when it comes to the subject of the Holocaust there is so much sensitivity?"[/quote]

And so on.

If you switch the word "Zionist" for "Jew" a lot of those statements make more sense.

Bottom line, from my perspective:

Israel is a pluralist, parliamentary democracy, with a free press, free and fair elections, rule of law that binds her government, mechanisms to enforce minority rights, and minority participation in all levels of society, including Cabinet, the military, public institutions and business.

None of the countries around her can make the same claim.

In fairness, Israel citizens who are Arab are underrepresented in the Knesset and in senior levels of government and business--but they are represented. 1 Jewish MP in Tehran does not come close to Arab participation in Israel public life.

We agree on something.

You try and be openly gay in Saudi Arabia (homosexuality is rife there, but they kill people for homosexuality), or Iran (no thanks). Now try it in Tel Aviv, the most LGBT-friendly city in the Middle East.

I think the likes of Haaretz and the NK sort of prove that.

I think the likes of Haaretz and the NK sort of prove that.