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bizboy1
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01 May 2012, 11:36 am

There are more men that are simply intellectually superior. It's a fact.



foxfield
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01 May 2012, 12:14 pm

It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.



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01 May 2012, 12:16 pm

foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.



TM
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01 May 2012, 12:34 pm

Kurgan wrote:
foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.


There are also a few studies that indicate that men are smarter than women on average, but I'm sure the studies will be claimed to be dodgy or ordered by the patriarchy. It's the funny thing about 3rd party sources, people tend to credit their own more than those of others.

http://www.livescience.com/7154-men-sma ... laims.html
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=2357
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... ter-people



Sweetleaf
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01 May 2012, 1:06 pm

Kurgan wrote:
foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.


yeah maybe that some men are better at calculus, math and physics than some women and vice versa......but I highly doubt this is true of every single women and every single man. what is with all these black and white blanket generalizations?


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Sweetleaf
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01 May 2012, 1:18 pm

TM wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.


There are also a few studies that indicate that men are smarter than women on average, but I'm sure the studies will be claimed to be dodgy or ordered by the patriarchy. It's the funny thing about 3rd party sources, people tend to credit their own more than those of others.

http://www.livescience.com/7154-men-sma ... laims.html
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=2357
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... ter-people


I only looked at one and basically all it confimed is some men are smarter than women, some women are smarter then men and vice versa. There is no way to prove all men are smarter than all women even if it were true. But anyways genders aren't even so black and white as they were once thought to be. Meaning one could be female with a male brain, or male with a female brain or there could even just be bits of both genders in the brain...so I guess ones sexual organs still does not determine their intelligence.


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01 May 2012, 1:20 pm

Quote:
yeah maybe that some men are better at calculus, math and physics than some women and vice versa......but I highly doubt this is true of every single women and every single man. what is with all these black and white blanket generalizations?


I don't wish to say that men may be better, or stronger than women, not at all. I am saying they may have characteristics which are expressed in a work of art to advantage.

We know history is full of bad things. Hypatia was a brilliant mathmetician of ancient times. The great powers of the time said that a women couldn't be that good, so she had to be a witch. She was executed.



TM
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01 May 2012, 1:21 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
TM wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
TM wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:

Are we trying to say here that even women can paint, but only men can become great artists? Just like they say that even women can cook, but only men can become greats chefs?


I think what is being alluded to is that women and men have equal capacity for art, but women are less likely to go 100% for their art, just like women are less likely to go 100% in any profession.


This one I would like to see some actual evidence for.....as I am pretty sure how much effort one puts into things depends on the person, not the gender. So since this seems like more of a generalization than a fact I'd like to see a source.


http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/17/37964450.pdf

If you want more sources check just about every single statistic done on hours worked in paid labour between the genders. Unless you include work within the home reported based on estimations, which is completely irrelevant in this discussion. Women as a whole work less than men, period, even counting those women who work just as much or more than men.


Work less as in less hours? less of them have professional careeres? and how do you figure a woman who works just as much or more than a man still works less than men? that does not even make sense.

But I was thinking you meant women as a whole put less effort into things....maybe you more meant they statistically work at jobs less in which case my disagreement was irrelevent. If that was your implication though your source doesn't even prove it...all it proves is on average there are more males with full time jobs than females.


The way a statistic works is through averages, so if it comes out that women on average work 35 hours a week, odds are that some work less than 35 hours, some work 35 hours and some work more than 35 hours, its why its called an average.

What my implication was, was that women tend to get "distracted" away from the career aspirations more frequently than men and therefore that they are less likely to reach the pinnacle of success within their field. This is supported by numbers that demonstrate that women work less total hours than men. IE Women on average put less time into their careers than men, therefore they are less likely to reach the top of their field.



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01 May 2012, 1:22 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.


yeah maybe that some men are better at calculus, math and physics than some women and vice versa......but I highly doubt this is true of every single women and every single man. what is with all these black and white blanket generalizations?
Men are better at math and women are better at language on average. There's a big difference between pointing out how things are on average and generalizing. It's annoying to have to disclaim this all the time when it should simply go without saying. What is with people assuming that any sort of broad statement whatsoever is a black and white generalization? Pointing out averages isn't generalizing and not all generalizations are black and white either (see the irony there?). Matter of fact I find it's safer to assume that a generalization is a rule of thumb than to assume it's an absolute law since that's what I find it is more often than not.



TM
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01 May 2012, 1:27 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
TM wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.


There are also a few studies that indicate that men are smarter than women on average, but I'm sure the studies will be claimed to be dodgy or ordered by the patriarchy. It's the funny thing about 3rd party sources, people tend to credit their own more than those of others.

http://www.livescience.com/7154-men-sma ... laims.html
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=2357
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... ter-people


I only looked at one and basically all it confimed is some men are smarter than women, some women are smarter then men and vice versa. There is no way to prove all men are smarter than all women even if it were true. But anyways genders aren't even so black and white as they were once thought to be. Meaning one could be female with a male brain, or male with a female brain or there could even just be bits of both genders in the brain...so I guess ones sexual organs still does not determine their intelligence.


That's not the argument I was making. Saying that all men are smarter than all women or vice versa is stupid. What they do confirm is that men as a whole are smarter than women as a whole using the characteristics in those studies.

Your last part about "it could be a female with a male brain" etc is just silly, your genitals do not decide your intelligence, however they are indicative of certain things unless you subscribe to the rather absurd notion that "the genders are equal in all ways except genitals" philosophy. You can per definition not have a female with a male brain, a male with a female brain or a tutti frutti of brains, unless we are speaking in terms of transsexuals and such things and somehow I doubt those make up a big enough group to throw off such a large sample size.



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01 May 2012, 1:41 pm

The problem with people who are so eager to call something a generalization is that they themselves are generalizing about generalizations. How are you so sure people mean "Absolutely ALL of them are like this" when they could mean "They are like this more often than not" or "Sure there's exceptions to the rule but the rule still stands"?

TM wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.


There are also a few studies that indicate that men are smarter than women on average, but I'm sure the studies will be claimed to be dodgy or ordered by the patriarchy. It's the funny thing about 3rd party sources, people tend to credit their own more than those of others.

http://www.livescience.com/7154-men-sma ... laims.html
Dude, all this really says is that men have more brain tissue mass. More brain tissue is necessary if you have bigger muscles. Connectivity is a much bigger factor in intelligence. Also intelligence isn't a cut and dried definition since there's many different types of intelligence and it's hard to establish a type of intelligence that is universally applicable. The g factor is a construct so I'm a bit wary of that.



TM
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01 May 2012, 1:57 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
The problem with people who are so eager to call something a generalization is that they themselves are generalizing about generalizations. How are you so sure people mean "Absolutely ALL of them are like this" when they could mean "They are like this more often than not" or "Sure there's exceptions to the rule but the rule still stands"?

TM wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.


There are also a few studies that indicate that men are smarter than women on average, but I'm sure the studies will be claimed to be dodgy or ordered by the patriarchy. It's the funny thing about 3rd party sources, people tend to credit their own more than those of others.

http://www.livescience.com/7154-men-sma ... laims.html
Dude, all this really says is that men have more brain tissue mass. More brain tissue is necessary if you have bigger muscles. Connectivity is a much bigger factor in intelligence. Also intelligence isn't a cut and dried definition since there's many different types of intelligence and it's hard to establish a type of intelligence that is universally applicable. The g factor is a construct so I'm a bit wary of that.


I quoted multiple sources for that reason. I tend to be in the camp that happens to think that our differences in hormones manifest more differences than chest-shape and genitals. Furthermore that "selective" breeding through societal preferences have enhanced different traits in both genders based on the values of a society.

I've mentioned that Ashkenazi Jews have a mean IQ of 115 whereas white people have an average IQ of 100. This is due to the focus on intelligence and the value attributed to things such as Torah/Talmud scholars and businessmen which in turn caused selective breeding between the offspring of the Scholars and best businessmen, causing mean IQ to rise in the group.

I don't see it as far fetched that the same is the case with other traits or in other group.



Sweetleaf
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01 May 2012, 2:01 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.


yeah maybe that some men are better at calculus, math and physics than some women and vice versa......but I highly doubt this is true of every single women and every single man. what is with all these black and white blanket generalizations?
Men are better at math and women are better at language on average. There's a big difference between pointing out how things are on average and generalizing. It's annoying to have to disclaim this all the time when it should simply go without saying. What is with people assuming that any sort of broad statement whatsoever is a black and white generalization? Pointing out averages isn't generalizing and not all generalizations are black and white either (see the irony there?). Matter of fact I find it's safer to assume that a generalization is a rule of thumb than to assume it's an absolute law since that's what I find it is more often than not.


Well saying on average men are better at calculus, math and physics.....sounds quite a bit different then 'its been proven men are better at calculus math and physics.' The first being the one that portrays pointing out an average, the second being the one that appears to be more of a generalization.

It might be annoying to have to include that, but people are going to misunderstand if it's left out...there are people who would say men are better at math in an argument about how men are 'better' than women or vice versa so unless one makes it clear they are talking averages and not generalizing every single person people may be more likely to make that mistake.


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01 May 2012, 2:10 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
The problem with people who are so eager to call something a generalization is that they themselves are generalizing about generalizations. How are you so sure people mean "Absolutely ALL of them are like this" when they could mean "They are like this more often than not" or "Sure there's exceptions to the rule but the rule still stands"?


I would not say I am all that eager to call something a generalization, but if something appears to be a generalization its kinda hard to assume its not one. If they say 'they are like this more often then not' then it will be clear that is what they mean......if they say 'they are like this' it looks like a generalization.


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01 May 2012, 2:17 pm

TM wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
TM wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
foxfield wrote:
It is a common stereotype that men are capable of more intellectual depth than women. For this reason I believe that cultural works produced by men are more likely to be viewed as serious and important and those produced by women are more likely to be dismissed as enjoyable yet trivial.

If you want an example of how deeply predjudiced people are about gender, I remember reading about a study in which people graded an exam. They found that the same exam tended to be graded lower when it had a girls name at the top rather than a boys name.


It's been scientifically proven that men are better at calculus math and physics than women. On the other hand, women are usually better at language skills and remembering formulas than men.


There are also a few studies that indicate that men are smarter than women on average, but I'm sure the studies will be claimed to be dodgy or ordered by the patriarchy. It's the funny thing about 3rd party sources, people tend to credit their own more than those of others.

http://www.livescience.com/7154-men-sma ... laims.html
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=2357
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... ter-people


I only looked at one and basically all it confimed is some men are smarter than women, some women are smarter then men and vice versa. There is no way to prove all men are smarter than all women even if it were true. But anyways genders aren't even so black and white as they were once thought to be. Meaning one could be female with a male brain, or male with a female brain or there could even just be bits of both genders in the brain...so I guess ones sexual organs still does not determine their intelligence.


That's not the argument I was making. Saying that all men are smarter than all women or vice versa is stupid. What they do confirm is that men as a whole are smarter than women as a whole using the characteristics in those studies.

Your last part about "it could be a female with a male brain" etc is just silly, your genitals do not decide your intelligence, however they are indicative of certain things unless you subscribe to the rather absurd notion that "the genders are equal in all ways except genitals" philosophy. You can per definition not have a female with a male brain, a male with a female brain or a tutti frutti of brains, unless we are speaking in terms of transsexuals and such things and somehow I doubt those make up a big enough group to throw off such a large sample size.


Actually its not silly at all, there is science behind it......I can go look up some sources later and post them if you'd like. It is very possible to have a female brain and be physically male and vice versa. Also genders are hardly equal in all ways, there are things that are true on average about the different genders. However it obviously varies depending on the individual and other factors such as research that indicates its possible to have sexual organs that do not match up with the brains gender.

But yes transsexuals would be part of what I'm describing......but one does not have to be a transexual to deviate from what is average for either gender. So it stills stands that if men are on average more intelligent, there could still be women smarter than most men and men that are less intelligent than most women.


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