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ruveyn
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26 Jun 2012, 1:33 pm

On the Day After Tomorrow the Supreme Court will let us know what is left of Obama-Care. If Obama-Care goes down, then (hopefully) so will Obama. Not that I am any fan of Mitt Romney, mind you. Mitt's main virtue is that he is not Obama.

ruveyn



androbot2084
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26 Jun 2012, 1:42 pm

And once again a marketplace will be made of health care.



mentallyskilled
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26 Jun 2012, 2:40 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuT9qszw6IQ

the beginning of that video is the supreme court's decision on obamacare, all three of them. premade before they even "do their job".



simon_says
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26 Jun 2012, 2:49 pm

It will be a shame if it goes down. Many people will suffer.

What's funny is the ignorant podunks who scream that this is an unprecendeted arrangement. It's not. The governmnet uses financial incentives to encourage behavior all the time. They are called tax breaks and rebates. The only difference here is that the break comes first and then the tax/fee is applied to those who misbehave.. Is it so philosophically different to tax everyone with a health tax and then rebate insurance holders? No.

The entire thing could be passed again with a reversed tax / tax break structure so it's really a pedantic technical argument and not high principle.



ruveyn
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26 Jun 2012, 7:14 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
And once again a marketplace will be made of health care.


Health care is a service that costs something to provide. It is a commodity to be bought and sold, just like house painting and car repair.

The people who do health care should be paid for their service, preferably by the people who get the service.. That is sensible economics.

Health care is NOT a right. It is a service that is provided as some cost and effort on the part of the provider.

ruveyn



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26 Jun 2012, 9:29 pm

Health Care as a right will not be soo great. Just look at Canda their is a reason why some of them come to the US for Health Care.



simon_says
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26 Jun 2012, 10:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
And once again a marketplace will be made of health care.


Health care is a service that costs something to provide. It is a commodity to be bought and sold, just like house painting and car repair.

The people who do health care should be paid for their service, preferably by the people who get the service.. That is sensible economics.

Health care is NOT a right. It is a service that is provided as some cost and effort on the part of the provider.

ruveyn



Emergency healthcare is essentially a right. They can't turn you away. We each pay ~$1,000 a year to cover the expenses of people who don't pay their bills and who are either too stupid to get insurance or unable to get it.

You can't turn up at the supermarket, claim to be hungry, and walk away with $50,000 worth of brocolli. Not without a gun and a very large bag anyway.



Joker
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26 Jun 2012, 11:01 pm

They will still bill you for emergency healthcare their for it's not a right.



simon_says
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26 Jun 2012, 11:24 pm

Go ahead and bill a bum. He'll pay you in seashells and bottlecaps.

The insured are carrying the uninsured. In the least effective and most expensive way possible.



Joker
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26 Jun 2012, 11:31 pm

The uninsured are the unemployed.



aghogday
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27 Jun 2012, 4:21 am

ruveyn wrote:
On the Day After Tomorrow the Supreme Court will let us know what is left of Obama-Care. If Obama-Care goes down, then (hopefully) so will Obama. Not that I am any fan of Mitt Romney, mind you. Mitt's main virtue is that he is not Obama.

ruveyn


One of his earlier virtues on his resume was Romney-Care, but it is no longer his flavor of the month, per national scope, nor is the mandate, no longer the flavor of the month as it was per some in the Republican party with Gingrich back in the Clinton days, before it became the only option left, in a reasonable attempt to reform what could be possibly be reformed per consensus of two parties very much in opposition to each other.

Would have never happened without the efforts of Nancy Pelosi, the one evidenced with the largest political "will" at the time.

There are some political analysts that suggest that Obama will be more likely to be re-elected if the health care reform were to go down, per a political fire lit under the 70% of democrats that support healthcare reform to get out and vote, and some that suggest it will make no significant impact because of the nations focus on the economy, with polls suggesting he is currently 4 points ahead.

It is evident though, that politicians, republican and democrat will support a nationwide mandate when it is to their favor and that the majority of the public has been convinced that they do not want to buy something they don't think they need. Some are only going to be pleased if they are going get it for free. That could be arranged, but it is going to cost someone to pay for it.

Other than the mandate, the public strongly supports the other provisions of the bill. Some of the larger insurance companies might continue to cover individuals on a temporary basis for good PR, as promised to the Republicans, but they aren't going to risk losing money in the long term. If the mandate aspect is struck down as is anticipated by the majority of analysts, with the potential of the rest of the bill left in tact, it will be interesting to see what the solution to that problem is going to be. It's not going to be free, in the long run.

At this point, the restrictions per the mandate allowed an out, for those refusing to pay the penalty without legal repercussion, refusing coverage. That may not be an option for the answer that comes, if the mandate is struck down, and the rest of the bill is left intact. States mandates have been one suggested answer; Romney helped to set the precedent for that solution. There are no outs for refusing to pay the penalty in Massachusetts.



aghogday
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27 Jun 2012, 5:26 am

Joker wrote:
The uninsured are the unemployed.


That amounts to over 10 million people. Emergency care is not going to provide assistance for chronic conditions requiring treatment like chemotherapy. It is an effective death sentence for some to lose their jobs, and health care coverage.

The affordable health care act, resolves this problem for many when fully instituted. And the problem is one of life or death, for some.

There is also the potential that some children with autism, may lose their guaranteed coverage under private insurance plans, at this point required coverage to age 19, because of the new requirements currently effective with the affordable health care act, for private insurance companies covering those with preexisting conditions, if the entire act is revoked.

Along, with the potential that some with autism will no longer be afforded coverage under their parents insurance policy provided by employers, to age 26, extended by the current health care reform act.

These are among the families among the 37% of the country polled that do not want to see any of the health care reform package reformed. They likely only exist in the millions, as a relatively small portion of the population, but hardly an insignificant portion of the country. Those that will not be able to get full coverage, even if their parents are making a 100,000 dollars a year.

Out of sight though, and out of mind, for those not personally touched by these potential hardships that have nothing to do with how hard someone is willing to work in life, to support their family or themselves.

Not likely anyone close to them will miss the opportunity to vote in December, if those insurance benefits are taken away, as a result of republican lawsuits, challenging the Health Care Reform Act.

I pay my portion of health care coverage at $6,000 per year per my federal retirement insurance coverage that pays for $12,000 of the full fee of $18,000, for my wife and myself.

This is the regular rate for a non-retired family of two, for individuals in the bottom rung of government non-appropriated employment making a little over minimum wage in a full time position. They pay almost half of their take home salary just in health insurance costs. With the affordable healthcare act, if they have children, they would pay nothing for medicaid coverage.

I live in the bible belt; the preachers are telling them healthcare reform is an evil socialist government plot, broadcasting by radio, for those not able to attend church.

That $6,000 could go a long way to provide a better life for their children. At this point some feel lucky just to have the opportunity to spend close to half their salary on coverage, to insure their family's health is not at risk, from potential chronic illness, and no health care coverage.

That's not the same concern for some young healthy single people who are under the illusion that they are invincible, and will worry about insurance coverage sometime in the future, when they need it.

Meanwhile there are some of these same individuals who stand to gain medicaid coverage, because they too are working in a job close to minimum wage, and neither are afforded an opportunity to buy insurance or can't hope to afford $6,000 for insurance coverage and pay their rent.

But some don't even realize it, because all some have been listening to is people that focus on the described evil government socialist plot of healthcare reform, rather than reviewing the fact sheets easy to find on any internet connection. And of course, if they are among the many who feel invincible among the ills that may suddenly fall on anyone, it's not likely even on their radar.

I paid insurance my entire life, and haven't skipped a payment yet. I never needed it for 23 years for myself, but had a child in a hospital for 51 days and a bill of 300K, that would have required bankruptcy and the loss of my home if I had not been covered. It happened to the people who lived across the street from me, who were not afforded the opportunity to purchase health care coverage with their employer for their family. They lost their home, but it is worth every penny to them, because their child survived.

I give people credit for out of sight and out of mind, or the youthful vigor of invincibility, but if they have ever personally witnessed the loss and suffering of others, in that minority of 40 million out of over 300 million that aren't covered, whom worked their tails off all their lives, and were not afforded an opportunity to purchase insurance at their time of need, all I can say is I wouldn't wish what I have seen happen to others, if they are caught in a time of need, that can impact anyone, even the one's who perceive themselves as the current lucky ones, with the illusion that they are invincibly self-sufficient in the capricious reality of life.

I understand that, I went without coverage in college for a couple of years when I passed the age of coverage under my mothers policy. I never worried for a minute. And I never worried about it for myself for the 23 years that I had insurance for myself and never needed it. But you can bet it caught my attention when I had a child, and my wife was diagnosed with Epilepsy shortly after the birth of the child. That's a roulette will that everyone plays; there is never a guarantee of a child or mother's health at birth, even if everything is expected to go right.

And per the issue of Canada, there are quite a few posters here, that don't watch American propaganda on fox that live there. I haven't come across one that would trade the government policies on healthcare between countries.



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27 Jun 2012, 8:52 am

simon_says wrote:
Go ahead and bill a bum. He'll pay you in seashells and bottlecaps.

The insured are carrying the uninsured. In the least effective and most expensive way possible.


Hospitals are required to provide emergency care, and that is good. You will be billed for it; but they also have financial aid resources.

Obama's health care reform had some good points and some bad points. I don't think the government has a right to force you to buy health insurance (The driving parrallel doesn't work, because I can choose not to drive, I would have to kill myself to escape the individual mandate.)

What concerns me about it is the financial cost. As some pointed out, health care costs money. Doctors and nurses are highly skilled employees who spend a ton of time training, and the job carries so many risks. Medical supplies cost money as well. None of these things are free. We often see government is not very good at controlling costs. I recently read a government agency buying laptops for 4,000 dollars a laptop (when the public would pay 1200). Private companies are much better at controlling costs, but there must be some regulation to ensure they are not cutting costs to the point of people dying.



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27 Jun 2012, 9:41 am

Joker wrote:
Health Care as a right will not be soo great. Just look at Canda their is a reason why some of them come to the US for Health Care.

that is just american right-wing propaganda. the typical canadian [99%'er] is damned glad they are not at the mercy of predatory american insurance companies, and is largely sanguine about the waits for certain medical procedures, knowing that is a modest price to pay for health care security of a kind totally unknown by the vast majority of american dupes. i would take their real health care system over our uniquely dysfunctional non-system in a new york second.



Last edited by auntblabby on 27 Jun 2012, 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

simon_says
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27 Jun 2012, 9:43 am

thewhitrbbit wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Go ahead and bill a bum. He'll pay you in seashells and bottlecaps.

The insured are carrying the uninsured. In the least effective and most expensive way possible.


Hospitals are required to provide emergency care, and that is good. You will be billed for it; but they also have financial aid resources.

Obama's health care reform had some good points and some bad points. I don't think the government has a right to force you to buy health insurance (The driving parrallel doesn't work, because I can choose not to drive, I would have to kill myself to escape the individual mandate.)

What concerns me about it is the financial cost. As some pointed out, health care costs money. Doctors and nurses are highly skilled employees who spend a ton of time training, and the job carries so many risks. Medical supplies cost money as well. None of these things are free. We often see government is not very good at controlling costs. I recently read a government agency buying laptops for 4,000 dollars a laptop (when the public would pay 1200). Private companies are much better at controlling costs, but there must be some regulation to ensure they are not cutting costs to the point of people dying.


A) They don't force you to buy it. They put a financial penalty on not buying it which government has done for years. Just as man A got a tax break for winterizing his home and man B did not. Just as man C got a break for his mortgage and his renter brother did not. The government uses a financial carrot and stick to encourage behavior in hundreds if not thousands of ways. Not news.

The Democrats screwed themselves on a technicality to avoid mentioning an explicit tax, not a high principle of the law. If in power they could fix it in a day and you'd still have PPACA in all of it's detail.

B) Why would the costs of governmnet impact private insurers? This isnt single payer and there was no public option. Did you miss that? The government isnt taking it over, they were requiring those above 133% of the poverty level to get private insurance or pay a tax fine. If you don't pay they take it out of your tax returns.



Last edited by simon_says on 27 Jun 2012, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

auntblabby
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27 Jun 2012, 9:43 am

Joker wrote:
The uninsured are the unemployed.

facepalm. :roll: the working class/self-employed are most of the uninsured.